How Strong was Michael Roa Valdamjong?

This blog will be dedicated exclusively to exploring the full scope of Roa’s original power in his first, true body. I will not cover his reincarnation in SHIKI’s body during Tsukihime, as his abilities in that form are relatively straightforward and don’t warrant the same depth of analysis. Instead, the focus here will be on his original self, whose power is far more complex and fascinating to examine.

Many fans underestimate Michael Roa Valdamjong, even claiming he’s below Crimson Moon, despite having Crimson Moon’s power combined with his own. This thread aims to clear up that misconception. Roa isn’t just another Dead Apostle; he’s one of the most terrifyingly advanced magi in the verse's history. The truth is that Roa is simply built different. 

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Ciel's foreshadowing:

A good starting point to grasp his power is Ciel, his second-last incarnation. Ciel inherited Roa’s magical knowledge, which qualifies her for the position of a grand magus in the Association:

She boasts excellent reflexes, and is number seven in the Burial Agency despite her young age. She’s not just skilled in martial arts, though. The knowledge of magecraft that she inherited from Roa is equivalent to that possessed by a magus of the rank of Grand—the highest rank in the Association. Even in the Church, where magecraft is officially forbidden, this is regarded as a highly useful asset. However, Ciel herself hates drawing on Roa’s knowledge. - Tsukihime Dokuhon Plus-Period: Ciel [Person]

And as we know, Magecraft is essentially the practice of replicating natural phenomena artificially:

A general term for the act of artificially reenacting mysteries and miracles.
Although each school has its individual differences, it is basically a mechanism for using the magical energy in the practitioner’s body or the outside world, in order to reenact a predetermined phenomenon. The practitioner sends an order (command) to the foundation (system) controlled by their school, and a pre-made function (program) is executed.
The “electrical current” needed to send that command and execute the program is magical energy.
Though magecraft may seem almighty, it is basically the bringing about of mysteries by means of equivalent exchange. Accordingly, magecrafts powerful enough to interfere with Nature will obviously require enough magical energy (mana) to fill Nature just to execute them. There is a limit to the magecrafts that can be executed using an individual’s magical energy alone.
Also, magecrafts that affect other people’s minds and change the course of their thoughts require no physical compensation, but the practitioner will inevitably find their own thoughts being pulled in that altered direction as well. As the saying goes, before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves. Because the study of curses is looked down upon as unscholarly by the Association, they have fallen far behind the Middle East in that particular field. - Tsukihime Dokuhon Plus-Period: Magecraft [term]

The magus, in this case, uses magical energy as an “electrical current” to activate and manipulate the desired phenomena. They essentially “buy” abilities and powers from Gaia’s system. The higher the magical energy, skill, and knowledge, the more extensive this control becomes.

However, this also means magecraft is fundamentally limited to natural phenomena. It is essentially a “bribed” form of physics manipulation. It cannot override the system or break reality’s rules like True Magic does.

Still, Ciel’s immense reserves and refined application speak volumes. The “Grand” rank especially refers to rituals that aim to challenge the limits of magecraft itself:

It was possible to transform one thing into another, but it was impossible to produce something from nothing. However, the essence of magecraft as a discipline was to challenge that “Nothingness,” and endeavor towards the impossible. Large-scale spells such as the so-called Grand Sorceries, Grand Rituals were really purposeless if not for attempting to reach “ ” (kara) or True Magic. - Garden of sinners Pamphlet: Magecraft [Other]

It further adds that “Grand” spells speak directly to the world, not the individual:

A necessary step in the activation of magecraft.
While utilizing an established school of magecraft, one must strictly follow a set protocol. Spellcasting is one step in this protocol.
An analogy would be the application process of a document, which would include application, acceptance, review, and finally issuance. Spellcasting would be the “application” step.
In the case of utilizing magecraft with a broad Foundation, spellcasting is mostly a convention. However, for those who practice their own style of magecraft, spellcasting has potent self-suggestive powers.
In the bodies of magi, the Magic Circuits which shape magecraft already exist.
Incantations are the “personal adage” that help the magi transform themselves. They are a method to efficiently activate and mobilize the Magic Circuits.
Spellcasting is not a method to speak to the World, but a method to speak to oneself. Even for the same spell, different magi will utilize different incantations due to their distinct natures.
As an aside, spells that speak to the World rather than oneself are classified as Grand Spells or Grand Rituals, and it is impossible for an individual to use such spells. - Garden of sinners Pamphlet: Spellcasting [Other]

Most magecraft functions through self-hypnosis: the magus uses incantations to transform themselves into a magical circuit, aligning their internal nature with the spell. This process is personal; each magus casts uniquely based on their own nature.

Grand Spells, however, bypass this. They don’t speak to the self, but directly to the World, tapping into vast external Foundations like divine authority or natural law. Because they’re not filtered through individuality, they produce effects with far greater scale, purity, and consistency. This is the highest level magecraft can reach without becoming True Magic.

This is significant, as it places Ciel in the same league as Lorelei Barthomelois, the current strongest magus, whose raw power alone rivals the Dead Apostle Ancestors and edges toward the miraculous through pure refinement:

The current head of the renowned Barthomelois. Even though she hasn't arrived at magic, she has the talent to almost reach the level of a miracle with just sorcery. - Tsukihime 2

 For a Dead Apostle, a night of a red moon is when they reach the height of their strength. Even the mediators of the Church who excels in vampire hunting don't dare to fight under the red moon.

Barthomeloi who tramples upon her enemy, even breaking that taboo.

The Queen - The Supreme Mage of the Present Era, a holy maiden who equals the strength of the 27 Dead Apostle Ancestors by herself. - Tsukihime 2

And this speaks directly to Roa, whose original potential is actually superior to Ciel’s, even if some may assume otherwise. It is directly confirmed that none of his later bodies ever fully matched his original:

Though he did not actually become weaker with each successive reincarnation, none of his host bodies held the same potential as the very first Michael Roa Valdamjong.
At the very end he reincarnated into Ciel, whose body had potential close to his own, and Tohno Shiki, whose body would be his last. - Tsukihime Data Collection: Michael Roa Valdamjong [Person/Dead Apostle]

Roa didn’t weaken because of reincarnation itself; he was limited by the host body’s potential. He also had to rebuild his memory and magical prowess in each new vessel. That’s why Arcueid was able to consistently defeat him. Even Ciel, with all her power, still lost to Arcueid, proving she hadn’t reached Roa’s original peak.

While Roa claims Ciel’s body has the same potential as his original in the visual novel, the guidebook later clarifies it’s only “close.” This isn’t a contradiction but a difference in perspective:

• Roa, focused on practical results, considers it equal in magical utility and Circuit capacity.

• The guidebook, from a technical standpoint, notes that no reincarnated body can fully replicate the perfect soul-vessel alignment of Roa’s original self.

So while it’s close enough for Roa to call “the same,” it’s not literally identical. That slight misalignment, mentally and physically, is why Ciel could never surpass or truly replicate his original might.

But the most important point is that Ciel only inherited the surface-level portion of Roa’s knowledge:

The source of Ciel’s magecraft is the knowledge she inherited from Roa. Aside from the Cremation Rite, there is also the Internment Rite, which turns the target into stone, the Mummification Rite, which desiccates the target, and the Excarnation Rite, which causes countless crows to descend upon the target. Ciel herself is reluctant to make use of Roa’s knowledge, but if it’s for the sake of annihilating Dead Apostles she’ll use his (taboo) magecraft without even a bit of hesitation. -Tsukihime Dokuhon Plus Period - Cremation Rite [Technique]

This means her magecraft is limited to sacred rites adapted to her Black Keys. She has no access to Roa’s mid- or high-tier systems. This makes sense considering Arcueid always kills Roa before he can regain his full magical power. Ciel simply inherited what Roa managed to reconstruct before being stopped, and nothing more.

It’s also telling that she doesn’t hesitate to use any of these spells against vampires. If she possessed world-breaking magecraft, there would likely be signs of restraint or danger, but the text implies this is all she has.

Her “Powered Ciel” form only adds the use of Secret Numerical Crests, a basic application of Numerology, which we’ll explore in the next section. Numerology is a system that calculates the fundamental equations behind all phenomena. It ranges from simple effects like lightning to advanced manipulation of natural law. Lightning is considered the most basic and intuitive manifestation, making it a common starting point.

And that’s exactly what Ciel uses: lightning attacks, barriers, and basic traps; all standard output from elementary Numerology. Even SHIKI, in some routes, regains access to this foundational level of Roa’s magecraft. The difference is that Ciel has far better aptitude and refinement due to her body’s potential.

So while Ciel’s body is close to Roa’s original in capacity, it lacks the perfect soul-body alignment that made him exceptional, and more importantly, she only inherited his lowest-tier magecraft. That potential, while impressive, was never actualized. 

As further evidence, in the Melty Blood manga, Ciel in her powered state only barely defeats Nrvnqsr Chaos, a DAA-level threat.This reinforces that her advanced magecraft places her among the Dead Apostle Ancestors, but still doesn’t break past their tier like True Magic or Roa’s original self.

Thus, even a fragment of Roa’s magical theory, the basics, allowed Ciel to perform at Grand-tier levels and match DAA-class beings. His true capabilities, therefore, far exceeded what any of his reincarnations, or even Ciel, ever displayed. And it’s this immense lost potential that we now turn to.

Roa's original power as a human:

The scale of Roa's power becomes clear when he reflects on having reached the absolute peak of magecraft as a human. He explains that any further progress required him to transcend humanity and become a vampire to extend his lifespan:

These seemingly casual statements are actually staggering. Roa literally hit a dead end in terms of magical prowess; not because he lacked power, but because the human body simply could not support any further growth. His mastery of magecraft had reached such heights that nothing more could be learned or improved upon within human limits. This is why even Ciel could potentially border on True Magic, inheriting part of that peak.

Notice also how Roa was entrusted with organizing the Burial Agency and aiding the True Ancestors in hunting down Demon Lords. This is incredible considering Demon Lords are essentially True Ancestors who have fully unleashed their bloodlust, operating at their absolute power. Typically, True Ancestors must restrain their impulses through immense willpower, as described here:

Each and every True Ancestor is burdened with the desire to drink the blood of the very humans they were meant to rule. And, in order to suppress that impulse, they consume their own willpower. Those that can change the state of the world merely be thinking are instead forced to use almost all of those “thoughts” to restrain themselves.- Tsukihime Dokuhan Plus Period

This weakens their use of Marble Phantasm, as most of the willpower they would otherwise use to alter reality must be spent suppressing their thirst for blood. However, at full power, their Marble Phantasm allows them to manipulate Gaia’s laws at the level of probability itself:

③ The user directly connects and imposes their will on the world which creates an interference that transforms the world as they see fit (as they imagine). They make reality an illusion (something impossible in reality).

④ More specifically a marble phantasm is thought to be realized when a multitude of phenomena are interfered with probability-wise, forcibly invoking the impossible.

⑤ What can be materialized is not limited to material objects, anything can be created as long as it’s a possible result of an interference in the probability of (natural) phenomena.

⑥ In the world of Tsukihime, a Marble Phantasm is the materialization of a part of an alien world that exists on top of the normal world, the fantasy world born from the imagination of elemental spirits. Therefore, it is possible for regular humans to wander into a Marble Phantasm.

The effects of world transformation are not directly applied to the target. - Colorful MOON Tsukihime

Unlike magecraft, which “borrows” from the natural world, Marble Phantasm allows True Ancestors to directly interface with nature and replace a localized area with a world shaped entirely by their imagination, granting them control over causality and probability at the highest level when unrestricted.

Despite all this, Roa was considered so powerful that the True Ancestors relied on him as a key ally in their conflict with the Demon Lords. To understand why, we turn to Melty Blood Actress Again, where Aoko Aozaki reveals the nature of his magecraft:

"Thunder created from a numerological crest... That's kind of orthodox and doesn't really suit you. Though, I practice the same sort of thing you do, so I'm not one to talk."- Melty Blood Actress Again Current Code - Aoko Aozaki's Win Quote versus Michael Roa Valdamjong

Before you ask, this is from Aoko’s story route, a unique, story-driven fight with cutscenes, so this win quote should be considered part of the official narrative and therefore canon.

Anyways, Roa's magecraft is based on Numerology. What is that? Well, as the name suggests, it is a practice based on decoding and manipulating the numerical underpinnings of reality, granting Roa precise control over natural phenomena. This is why, in the manga, his lair was empowered by an "equation." His entire moveset is centered on fixed numerical sequences that act as the building blocks of reality.

Aoko’s comment that his thunder is “too orthodox” for someone of his level reflects how basic the lightning appears compared to the full potential of Numerology. She draws the comparison to herself: outside of the Fifth Magic, her “bullet” magecraft is similarly straightforward.

It should also be noted that Roa is inhabiting SHIKI's body here, where he has not regained his magecraft for most of the VN routes; except in the unseen Yumizuka route, which acts as a prequel to Melty Blood. Meaning, it’s only in one route out of six that he actually recovers his magecraft at all, showing that SHIKI is likely not well suited to be a magus. This makes sense, as he is a mixed blood, and Roa mainly chose him for his unique abilities tied to life force manipulation, rather than his magecraft potential. So this doesn’t mean Roa's entire magecraft system is limited to such thunder attacks; they are simply the backbone of his moveset even in diminished hosts.

So why lightning? Because lightning is deceptively precise. While it seems chaotic, every bolt is the result of specific, deterministic conditions: electrical potential, geometry, atmospheric charge. Lightning is nature’s proof that order exists beneath apparent chaos. For Roa, it’s the perfect symbolic expression of Numerology: hidden equations brought to visible form.

In the same way that Aoko’s bullets are a precursor to the refined abstraction of the Fifth Magic (Both based on accelerating processes to bring destruction) Roa’s lightning is the “surface-level” expression of his deeper mastery; the manipulation of reality’s very code. Roa stood at the absolute pinnacle of human Magecraft. Since Magecraft is the replication of natural phenomena, his Numerology would have allowed him to fully command Gaia’s laws and how they manifest. By decoding their equations, he could calculate and actualize pinpoint-accurate manifestations of the phenomena he desired.

This also explains why he could contest Demon Lords. The latter manipulate nature through probability, but Roa governs it through precise, deterministic conditions. He is essentially a more refined and efficient version of them. This is the true meaning behind Roa having reached the peak of Magecraft: he mastered every phenomenon Gaia could offer and every mystery the human magical system could interpret.

Roa doesn’t merely “borrow” from the world like a typical magus; he forces the world to obey him, because he controls the very “code” that defines its system. That’s why even a fragment of his knowledge made Ciel Grand-tier, and why his true self stood at the edge of the impossible.

The implications are staggering. If the mathematical framework underlying natural phenomena is universal, Roa could, in theory, apply his magecraft beyond Gaia, affecting alien worlds unless an Ultimate One actively rejected those equations' validity.

Roa was truly on the verge of True Magic. And his conversion into a Dead Apostle was the one final step needed to go further: to surpass the boundaries of human knowledge, not by learning more, but by changing the very frame in which knowledge operates.

Some might argue, “Nothing says Roa’s magecraft actually works like numerology,  it’s just a name.” But that’s like saying if a character declares they’re going to drive a car, it might not actually be a car unless we literally see it on screen. While exceptions exist in fiction, the default assumption is that things function as designed unless explicitly contradicted.

Numerology isn’t some made-up concept exclusive to Type-Moon. It’s a real-world practice with a precise meaning: the study of numbers and their hidden significance in the structure of reality. So, it’s fair and consistent to interpret Roa’s magecraft as rooted in this system of numbers and equations, granting him a precise, ordered control over natural phenomena.

To recap, Roa in his original body was an exceptional magus who reached the absolute peak of human magical theory, gaining mastery over the natural laws of Gaia through Numerology, a magecraft rooted in decoding and altering the numerical sequences that define all phenomena. His power was so advanced that even the True Ancestors relied on him in their war against the Demon Lords, beings capable of warping reality through sheer will. Even a diminished version of his potential, as seen in Ciel, was enough to rival Dead Apostle Ancestors and attain the rank of Grand Magus, the highest classification of magecraft that pushes the limits of sorcery toward the realm of True Magic.

Yet this still wasn’t Roa at his strongest. His true peak would only come after abandoning humanity altogether; through his transformation into a Dead Apostle, which we’ll now explore.

Prime Roa, the greatest vampire:

Roa's next goal was to overcome the limitations of human existence by becoming a vampire, a being no longer bound by a mortal lifespan and therefore capable of fully actualizing its magical potential over time. However, he didn’t simply choose to become a Dead Apostle at random. Roa sought a very specific method that would immediately grant him the full benefits of vampirism and enough power to continue his research without interference.

To achieve this, he devised a plan to trick Arcueid Brunestud, the strongest of the True Ancestors, into drinking his blood; thus transforming him into a Dead Apostle in the most optimal way possible:

Oh? What will you tell it, Narbarek?

Let's see. I'll tell it something like--After around a hundred years, another newcomer Dead Apostle will appear. It is pointless to take notice of him, so ignore him.

No, you wouldn't need to wait a hundred years. Just like here, I will rise quickly to the top. This body will become the most superior vampire, so ten years will be enough.

How foolish. Even if it is you, you would need at least a hundred years if you start over from The Dead. Their world's intensity is nowhere as nice as ours.

Using direct methods, then you would be right.

But if I become the strongest vampire from the very beginning, their world's rules will not apply to me.

...... What do you mean by that?

It is simple.
As a priest of the Church, you certainly know that Dead Apostles' powers are affected by the True Ancestor that sucked their blood.
Therefore---the solution is very simple.

If I wish to become the strongest Dead Apostle,
this blood of mine,
it must be sucked by the strongest of the True Ancestors--- - Tsukihime: Near Side - Ciel's route: Day 6/Bow in the Sky I

This is a crucial detail: a vampire’s strength is shaped by the True Ancestor that creates them. Normally, a new vampire begins as a lowly Dead and must spend centuries developing into a true Dead Apostle. But in Roa’s case, he arranged to be turned by Arcueid Brunestud, whose power surpasses all other True Ancestors by a wide margin. As a result, Roa bypassed the traditional maturation process entirely. He didn’t just skip the weaknesses of being human; he even negated the usual limitations of vampirism itself.

For Roa, becoming a Dead Apostle was never the goal, only a necessary step to achieve something greater:

Refer to Tsukihime.
He too is a magus who became a Dead Apostle to reach True Magic. -Kagetsu Tohya - 27 Dead Apostle Ancestors Series, ＥＸ／Michael Roa Valdamjong

After achieving this transformation, Roa’s power spiked dramatically. He unified multiple factions of sealed Dead Apostles and expanded his influence so effectively that Altrouge Brunestud, who saw him as a threat, attempted to stop him. But even she was defeated outright:

He tricked Arcueid, the strongest True Ancestor at the time, into drinking his blood, and immediately became a powerful Dead Apostle. Then, by unifying the factions of those Dead Apostle Ancestors who had already been sealed by the Church, he established his influence. In response, Altrouge set out to put the newcomer Dead Apostle in his place, but by that time Roa was already powerful enough to defeat her instead. Of course, it was only natural. Not only was Roa an excellent magus in his own right, but he was able to wield the power of the strongest True Ancestor, Arcueid, at the same time.
As a result, the 27 Ancestors left Roa to his own devices. It wasn’t until many years later that he was finally defeated by Arcueid and the Church working together. After that, he reincarnated into new hosts a total of seventeen times, locked in a never-ending deathmatch with Arcueid. - Tsukihime Dokuhon Plus Period: Roa [Person/Dead Apostle]

The quote itself underscores how overwhelming his power had become: “it was only natural.” Roa had combined the transcendent strength of Arcueid’s lineage with his mastery of magecraft, making him not only a top-tier Dead Apostle, but something far more dangerous: a vampire who was actively pushing beyond the boundaries of reality itself.

This was possible because Arcueid’s power is equivalent to that of the Crimson Moon, the Ultimate One of the Moon. In fact, she was considered his most ideal vessel for reincarnation:

Another name for the organism that was used as the template for the True Ancestors. Also known as the Crimson Moon Brunestud.

After he vanished, individuals close to him in power started being honored with the title of Brunestud.

However, in the long history of the True Ancestors, only two have ever received the name. - Melty Blood Act Cadenza PS2 Manual

This means that Roa literally took a Type’s power and fused it with his own magical knowledge, which already approached full transcendence of Gaia’s system.

And Roa defeating Altrouge is the final confirmation that he became something surpassing even the Crimson Moon. Why is that? Because just like Arcueid, Altrouge’s power is also close to that of Crimson Moon himself:

“Another name for the organism that was used as the template for the True Ancestors. Also known as the Crimson Moon Brunestud.

After he vanished, individuals close to him in power started being honored with the title of Brunestud.

However, in the long history of the True Ancestors, only two have ever received the name.”

— Melty Blood Act Cadenza PS2 Manual

 

Many people mistakenly believe that Roa described Altrouge as inferior in Kagetsu Tohya, but that’s a surface-level misreading of the dialogue. Let’s look closely:

Roa isn't saying that Altrouge is weaker. He is saying that the Crimson Moon wants purity, not just raw power. When Roa says Alt isn't "high enough" to succeed him, he means she isn't pure enough. This is because she is mentally unstable and has to seal her power into a weaker, teen-like base form, kind of like how Frieza in DBZ suppressed his power in lower forms because he couldn’t control it:

Vampire of the Dead Apostles. Mix of True Ancestor and Dead Apostle.
Can be called Arcueid's big sister. But her look is that of a 14 year old girl.
Usually, she has no special powers, and can't utilize Marble Phantasm.
But she can, like a magical girl, transform in two stages or something like that. - Kagetsu Tohya - 27 Dead Apostle Ancestors Series, ９／Altrouge Brunestud

Same thing here. Roa then notes that Alt is actually more powerful than CM in a way, due to having Primate Murder on her side, but she is still too unstable. That proves he never meant power, but mental stability and purity. Altrouge is as strong as CM, but only in terms of raw power. She isn’t pure or mentally stable enough to succeed him, even with PM. That added power doesn’t solve her instability.

He then says Arcueid was successful, but isn’t in a “state to accept you in” because she is chained. So again, it's about being mentally and spiritually aligned to become CM’s vessel, not just being powerful enough.

In terms of sheer power, though, Altrouge is relative to Type-Moon, as that’s the very requirement for receiving the title of True Ancestor royalty. Her only limitation is that she can only use that power in short bursts before it overwhelms her, forcing her to reseal it into a weaker form. Yet, the materials confirm that Roa was simply powerful enough to beat her. And we know from Melty Blood and Tsukihime 2 that she’s still alive, meaning Roa didn’t even see her as a meaningful threat; he wouldn’t be naive enough to let her escape if he thought she was.

This is even more impressive considering Altrouge always brings Primate Murder with her, along with two elite personal guards. One of them wields one of the three strongest demonic swords and carries a conceptual time-based curse said to make him "invincible." Despite all that, (rivaling CM, possessing Gaia’s Beast, and commanding such powerful servants), Altrouge never tried to challenge Roa again.

In fact, the quote clarifies that the 27 left Roa alone to his research afterwards. This implies that even the combined power of the 27 couldn’t stand up to him. And that’s staggering, because their ranks include people like Blackmore, who has a Reality Marble tailor-made to counter and kill undead beings, and Zelretch, the wielder of the Second Magic, who already defeated Crimson Moon alone.

That says everything about Roa’s power: he explicitly said he would become the most superior vampire; the most powerful of their kind, surpassing even Type-Moon, their progenitor. Roa isn’t arrogant or delusional; he said it with absolute certainty because it’s the natural result of Arcueid sucking his blood.

"They just didn’t care to stop him again!"

That doesn’t hold up. The Dead Apostle Ancestors are constantly scheming, backstabbing, and trying to one-up each other. If someone becomes a threat to their influence or breaks the implicit balance, they absolutely do interfere, especially Altrouge, who already tried once. She has Primate Murder, one of Gaia's apex beings, and even her two elite bodyguards with conceptual weaponry. She’s not the type to just let someone grow stronger unchallenged, unless she literally can’t stop them.

Most importantly, notice the wording itself:

“As a result, the 27 Ancestors left Roa to his own devices. It wasn’t until many years later that he was finally defeated by Arcueid and the Church working together. After that, he reincarnated into new hosts a total of seventeen times, locked in a never-ending deathmatch with Arcueid.”

“As a result” means because Altrouge was stomped, they left him alone. Then it explicitly says it took many years and a coordinated effort by Arcueid and the Church to finally defeat him.

So it’s not that they didn’t care: they literally couldn’t challenge him until much later.

So we have established that Roa is the most powerful vampire ever, wielding both Arcueid's power and his own, allowing him to easily outclass Crimson Moon-tier entities, even with significant backup at their disposal. Crimson Moon is the Ultimate One of the Moon, which means he has complete control over the fabric of reality within that celestial body and on Earth. Altrouge herself (who is relative in power to CM) has directly altered the Dead Apostle Zepia into an actual abstract concept, redefining his existence, and also took an abstract, human-centric idea like fear and rumors and turned it into an actual natural phenomenon within Gaia's system:

He made a contract with Altrouge of the Crimson Moon entailing that he would turn into TATARI until the next Night of the Crimson Moon in 1000 years, but… - Melty Blood Official Strategy Guide

A member of the 27 Dead Apostle Ancestors. One who tried to embody eternity not as a living being, but as a phenomenon. Tatari. - Melty Blood Act Cadenza PS2 Manual

This confirms that Altrouge and Crimson Moon do not merely manipulate physical laws like the Demon Lords or Roa’s earlier human-stage power; they can outright redefine what qualifies as a law in Gaia, granting them the freedom to change the boundaries of reality itself. Crimson Moon was even able to fight Zelretch and only barely lost, with Zelretch's Second Magic being full control over the countless timelines of the universe.

When mimicked by Aoko through the True Nature of her Fifth Magic, the Second Magic reveals even more abstract potential. This includes sending attacks to different points in time, jumping between segments of the time axis, and overlapping different versions of the user. It can also delay someone's death into the distant future or apply future experiences to the present:

These abilities demonstrate that the Second is not merely about controlling time, but about fundamentally redefining temporal causality and identity. It can replace, swap, or alter temporal events entirely, allowing the user to freely edit a person’s abilities or parameters by replacing them with alternate versions that developed differently. It can also select a particular future and apply it to the present to override it, or replicate phenomena by editing and manifesting the necessary conditions.

Roa stands above all of this because he combined the intrinsic authority of a Type with his Numerology. This represents a massive upgrade, as Numerology’s main limitation had always been that it could only manipulate phenomena already present within reality. Refer back to the example of Altrouge: she was able to create an entirely new abstract phenomenon. That’s something Numerology alone cannot accomplish; it cannot create or negate phenomena, only alter those that already exist. This means it cannot override an Ultimate One or similar being, since such entities can determine whether a phenomenon (and therefore its governing equations) is even valid to begin with.

But Arcueid’s power changed everything. With it, Roa gained the ability to create new concepts or re-enable suppressed phenomena: something no human magecraft could achieve. And more importantly, he could channel these phenomena precisely through Numerology. It wasn’t just brute power; it was ordered, structured, and exact.

And this isn’t even the full extent of it. Many overlook the fact that Roa didn’t just inherit Arcueid’s surface-level strength: he inherited the power of Archetype: Earth.

See, a vampire's soul is described as being fully “soiled” by their parent vampire upon conversion, and the same quote establishes that the soul is the information of the entity; containing all of its defining traits and foundational urges, independent of even conscious personality:

"Reincarnation isn't the transmitting of personality, it is the transmission of a soul.

So the personality differs every time depending on their families and upbringings. But the soul itself does not change.

Once bitten by a True Ancestor, not only is the body forever soiled, but the soul as well. What changes the body is the soul.

'The Serpent' transmits all his information called his soul, so when 'The Serpent' awakens, the body becomes one of a vampire but----" - Tsukihime: Near Side - Ciel's Route

The soul is what shapes the body, which in turn acts as the direct container through which information manifests into reality, inheriting its urges and inclinations. In Roa’s case, this means his soul was permanently altered by Arcueid’s essence. He didn’t just gain a copy of her normal power at 100% in her full Crimson Moon-tier form. What Roa inherited was the fundamental imprint of Arcueid; her “information,” injected into the core of his own being. And that foundational blueprint is precisely what Archetype Earth is.

I already made a thread dedicated to her specifically, so I’ll link it here if you’re interested. But to summarize:

Archetype is the “guiding principle” of Arcueid, the deepest layer of her soul, defined by her existential directives: being the reincarnation of Type-Moon (which she ultimately rejects in Kagetsu Tohya) and serving as Gaia’s sense of touch, the conceptual equivalent of a Type Earth.

Much like someone who has awakened to their Origin, Archetype Earth is the embodiment of Arcueid’s essence. She isn’t just a stronger version; she is the purest realization of what Arcueid is meant to be. She is the conceptual actualization of Gaia’s sentient will. This is why she could halt the Earth’s rotation in Actress Again; she isn’t bound by Gaia’s rules. She is Gaia, or rather, its capacity to self-define. Unlike regular Types, who are only extensions of their world’s current state, Archetype is Gaia’s potential totality given form.

Archetype essentially possesses the authority to redefine Gaia itself, as she embodies the very concept of Gaia as a self-contained reality. She isn’t bound by the laws of other celestial bodies because Gaia, as a system, already contains the possibility of those foreign worlds within its own conceptual framework. She doesn’t need to engage in a reality-warping contest with other Types; those other realities are already subsumed within her potential.

Just as Origin-awakened beings gain access to all their past lives shaped by a single metaphysical principle, Archetype Earth channels all possible forms Gaia could ever take. This means that any opposing world is inherently subordinate to her the moment the confrontation begins. It’s what makes her categorically superior to any Ultimate One. And through his soul being permanently contaminated by Arcueid’s essence, Roa would have absorbed that very same level of authority.

It wouldn’t make sense for the Dead Apostle transformation to only give him “regular” Arcueid’s power. Archetype Earth is her truest aspect, the part that defines her soul. Normal Arcueid is just one of many possible developments of that blueprint. Roa gains that same foundation, but with a different personality. As the quote above makes clear: the soul is passed on, but the mind develops differently. That’s why Roa’s own reincarnations vary in behavior: they all inherit his information, but each expresses it differently based on context and experience.

We even have precedent for this in the form of Sion. In various Melty Blood routes, she inherits Tatari itself and can become the new abstract phenomenon behind it:

The next time Tatari appeared, I would become a vampire completely. Unable to research a cure any longer───unable to defeat Tatari, I had no choice but to take in Tatari and become Tatari myself. If I became Tatari, I would not be controlled by Tatari."

Shiki: "So you became Tatari yourself?"

Vampire Sion: "While this is the worst outcome possible, it falls within my calculations. I... have no regrets."

There is no emotion in her voice.

As if to imitate her, I nod and respond with "I see" in an equally emotionless voice.

---

Shiki: "But, it's not too late, right? That black haze has not subsumed you. It is just around you."

Vampire Sion: "Yes. Tatari's night was not last night, but this one. When this night begins, I will become Tatari."

Shiki: "Are you okay with that, Sion?"

Vampire Sion: "Yes. When the next Tatari occurs I will have my answer. ...... Twenty years from now in Australia, or perhaps thirty years from now in Transylvania. In whichever case, I would not have been likely to survive.As an alchemist, it is natural to choose the certain solution."

Vampire Sion: "──Unexpected. I never thought you could kill this."

There is no black haze swirling around her.

It seems I really killed the Tatari she was speaking of.

Shiki: "tsst............"

---

But the sense of revulsion from her has not changed.

Just looking at her, no, just looking at her eyes, makes my headache start to pound.

Vampire Sion: "But nothing will change. Once I bit Tatari, I became a vampire. All you did was kill this time's Tatari."

Shiki: "Damn...... then, you mean, you..."

Vampire Sion: "Me being a vampire will not change. I can resist the vampiric impulse because Tatari is gone, but it is no different from before. ...... If it did change, it only means I will not attack people senselessly." - Melty Blood Route 3: Hologram Summer

Vampire Sion: "──Unexpected. I never thought you could kill this."

There is no black haze swirling around her.

It seems I really killed the Tatari she was speaking of.

Shiki: "tsst............"

---

But the sense of revulsion from her has not changed.

Just looking at her, no, just looking at her eyes, makes my headache start to pound.

Vampire Sion: "But nothing will change. Once I bit Tatari, I became a vampire. All you did was kill this time's Tatari."

Shiki: "Damn...... then, you mean, you..."

Vampire Sion: "Me being a vampire will not change. I can resist the vampiric impulse because Tatari is gone, but it is no different from before. ...... If it did change, it only means I will not attack people senselessly." - Melty Blood Route 3: Hologram Summer

- Melty Blood Route 3: Hologram Summer

Sion becomes Tatari because she was bitten by it. Tatari isn’t even a being; it’s an abstract phenomenon that doesn’t “exist” unless certain conditions are met. But vampiric conversion doesn’t care. The Dead Apostle inherits the information of the parent vampire regardless of whether they’re a person, a concept, or a phenomenon. Even though Sion remains a living being, once she completes the conversion, she transitions into the phenomenon that defines Tatari’s existence.

Likewise, Roa doesn’t just inherit Arcueid’s strength; he inherits her information, which culminates in Archetype Earth.

This means that Roa isn’t merely a “better Type”; he is a categorically superior entity. He represents a divergent evolution of Arcueid’s foundational essence: the will of Gaia itself. By wielding all potential forms Gaia can assume and combining them with the precision of Numerology, Prime Roa becomes one of the most powerful beings in the verse, capable of creating, redefining, and optimizing any possible configuration of space-time across all of creation.

This is possible because Gaia, in its purest conceptual form, is a self-contained reality. Every local set of natural laws is merely a possible branch or variation of its core blueprint. Roa, then, functions as a programmer of existence: someone who not only alters reality but fine-tunes it into an optimal system with mathematical exactness.

In this state, Roa is the strongest character in Tsukihime, surpassed only by Nanaya Shiki after he masters the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception in the Tsukihime 2 era; and by the top tiers of Kara no Kyoukai.

----

Now, I can definitely see people trying to contest this by pointing out how Roa has been defeated by Arcueid and the Holy Church:

As a result, the 27 Ancestors left Roa to his own devices. It wasn’t until many years later that he was finally defeated by Arcueid and the Church working together. After that, he reincarnated into new hosts a total of seventeen times, locked in a never-ending deathmatch with Arcueid. - - Tsukihime Dokuhon Plus Period: Roa [Person/Dead Apostle]

At first glance, Roa’s eventual defeat by the combined efforts of Arcueid and the Church may seem to contradict the immense power he gained after becoming a vampire. However, this is not necessarily the case. The Church does not rely on brute force or magical systems bound by Gaia: they wield Conceptual Weapons, artifacts that enforce absolute metaphysical effects regardless of the victim's scale or authority. These weapons do not simply “interact” with their target; they impose alien laws directly upon them.

For example:

• The Seventh Holy Scripture annihilates the soul itself and prevents reincarnation.

• El Nahat embodies the concept of refraction, upon activation, it bypasses conventional defenses and erases the target completely from reality with a 100% success rate. Its drawback is that it breaks upon use and takes decades to repair.

• Gamaliel is designed to protect the wielder even from phenomena like Tatari, preventing conceptual contamination or the absorption of abstract data from the user's being.

These are not expressions of Gaia’s system: they are foreign laws given form. They work not by outmatching Roa’s control over reality, but by applying rules that forcibly overwrite his existence. This distinction is crucial. Even Roa, who inherited the full depth of Archetype Earth’s authority, meaning access to all potential forms Gaia could ever take, including alien configurations, is still operating within the domain of Gaia. He may warp it, perfect it, or replicate its every possibility, but he does not exclude Gaia as a concept.

By contrast, Conceptual Weapons ignore Gaia altogether. They don’t require a contest of wills or a loophole in his numerology; they simply enforce new metaphysical truths onto Roa from outside his system, much like how the Black Barrel and Slash Emperor can kill Ultimate Ones by treating them as “targets with a finite lifespan” or "targets made up of planetary resources" regardless of their nature.

In short, Roa’s defeat does not undermine his ascension. It confirms that he had reached such a state of transcendence that only conceptual denial from external frameworks, not brute force, not counter-magecraft, could bring him down. He was not overcome by power greater than his, but by tools designed to nullify power altogether.

Another point of contention some might raise is why Roa never achieved true immortality and remained “stuck” with his cycle of reincarnation. But this is something Roa himself directly addresses:

"Immortality"

If those words are to be a grand reality, it would be one of the things which would define eternity. But in reality, nothing in existence has reached that level. For example, those vampires occasionally spoken of in legends are not immortal. After all, they are defective because they require stealing from others to exist. Furthermore, the fact that their supplemental parts have to be of the same species---in this case, generally referring to humans----means that they are not versatile at all. They call themselves the transcendent race, but that is not evolution, it is degeneration. That which cannot function independently in perpetuity cannot be called eternal. It is presumptuous to call something immortal if it depends on others to halt its aging. There already exists something close to perfection which can function independently in perpetuity. It feeds on itself and multiplies. It has no such thing as a lifespan. Old cells become food as nutrients and new cells are produced from it. Such as a jellyfish. However, it is perpetual only because it has no intelligence. If having no intelligence is fine, then it is no different from gaining eternity by death. 

 If you want to be eternal living as a human, it is impossible by the method of immortality. Long years destroy the body and wear away flexibility of the mind. Immortality or eternity. I have no attachment to stained immortality. Persistently maintaining individuality makes eternity unattainable. Instead of gaining immortality as a single human, I chose the infinity in which I continue to exist eternally. 

If no other humans existed, I would not be able to confirm my own self. So----if humans become extinct, then continuing to live would be worthless. At that point, my immortality would end. 

...... I do not understand your theory. That is far from the thesis of eternity, Serpent. 

No, it is eternity. When a time comes to perish, everything should perish. If observers cease to exist, then that means everything is unchanging. The eternity I embody is temporary until that time occurs. I cannot turn everything into nothingness. Therefore, I will continue living until it happens. - Tsukihime: Near Side - Ciel's route: Day 4/Black Beast II

The truth is: immortality is a conceptual impossibility. A body that doesn’t age still requires external resources to sustain itself. And even a self-sustaining organism cannot prevent the decay of the mind or soul. Roa sees no value in eternity if consciousness must be sacrificed to obtain it. Such a state would be indistinguishable from mindless perpetuation, like a jellyfish or fungus, life that continues without awareness or agency.

Even so-called “eternal” beings, like the True Ancestors and Ultimate Ones, entities that lack a pre-defined concept of death, can still be destroyed by external forces. This includes more fundamental truths of existence, other beings capable of countering their nature, or conceptual weapons and laws that forcibly impose the idea of death or render them inoperative by applying restrictions from outside their intrinsic system.

This is a theme central to Kara no Kyoukai: even Araya Souren and Ryougi Shiki, the most powerful beings in the entire franchise, are unable to indefinitely preserve their physical bodies. The very act of existing within the world subjects one to its boundaries, no matter how small or imperceptible. To reach true, unchanging eternity, one would have to exist as a pure abstraction, never engaging with form, never changing, never touching. But that state is indistinguishable from non-existence. It is, quite literally, a return to Nothing.

Hence, Roa chose reincarnation instead. By infinitely transmitting his soul, his foundational “information”, into new vessels, he can continue to act through different expressions of the same eternal idea: Michael Roa Valdamjong. And he will do so until the universe itself ends, and all things return to the void from which they came.

So this isn't an "anti-feat"; it's literally how the world works in this verse. If anything, Roa’s survival through reincarnation is proof of his overwhelming mastery over reality. He defied the natural cycle of life and death by transforming his soul into a flexible, self-replicating information pattern. This turns his existence into a calculated phenomenon that can optimally manifest in new vessels when conditions are met. It is numerology taken to its final form: the decodification of the soul itself, enabling its re-actualization across time as a necessary outcome embedded within Gaia’s possibilities. Just as Roa’s signature lightning represents the sudden, precise manifestation of order from chaos, his reincarnation is the soul’s equivalent: a metaphysical 'lightning strike' calculated to emerge from the infinite sea of potentiality when the right alignment of variables occurs.

Archetype Earth’s power is what made this possible. By inheriting her essence, Roa gained access to the primordial scaffolding of Gaia: not just its present form, but all possible states it could ever take. Through this, he was able to map every contradiction and variable Gaia might produce and encode his soul with the capacity to persist through all of them. His soul became not a fixed point in time, but an adaptable phenomenon embedded within Gaia’s formless potential, ensuring its rebirth by always finding the path of least resistance back into manifestation.

-----

As last thing to cover, Roa possesses a Reality Marble of his own, known as Overload:

The exact nature of this ability is somewhat ambiguous, but from a lore perspective, we know that Reality Marbles are self-contained realities imposed upon the world:

① Intrinsic Bounded Field (Also see the entry for “Marble”)
② The name “marble” comes from glass marbles used in a well-known example of the clustering illusion.
③ A subspecies of Marble Phantasm. One’s inner world is given shape through world interference that erodes reality.
④ More specifically, a Reality Marble is thought to be realized when a multitude of phenomena are interfered with probability-wise, forcibly invoking the impossible.
⑤ Originally the common knowledge of otherworldly beings referred to as “demons.” Though a skill of fairies and demons, after extensive time and practice one can acquire the ability to give shape to images in your mind. A few of the top magi and Dead Apostle Ancestors are capable of employing a Reality Marble.
⑥ However, objects created by a Reality Marble are at best still existences from another world, which means they are not creations of spirits that are extensions of nature, and so they are subject to being corrected or modified by the world. - Colorful Moon Tsukihime: Reality Marble

When Roa activates Overload in his Last Arc in Melty Blood, we see a shadowy arm reach out and drag the target into a mysterious portal. Intriguingly, the technique is titled “Seventeenth Transmigration,” directly referencing Roa’s own reincarnation cycle and confirming that this is more than a mere offensive spell; it is a metaphysical expression of his essence.

So what is Overload? The term suggests a system pushed beyond its limits, burdened with excessive input, causing destabilization. This aligns with Roa’s numerology and lightning-based spells, which symbolically represent abrupt, calculated disruption: an overload of orderly phenomena pushed to rupture. When the numerical foundation of reality breaks down, what remains is a glitch: a metaphysical void, a rupture in the fabric of existence. That is what the portal represents: a breach in the world equation forcibly opened by Roa’s will.

The name and function imply this is the very space Roa’s soul retreats to upon death: a non-physical, undefined dimension from which he reincarnates once a new vessel appears. This is not simply death but a transition back into potentiality, calculated and inevitable. In essence, Overload is Roa’s internal world after achieving his peak: a recursive gateway to the sea of possibilities Archetype Earth grants access to, harnessed by Roa’s soul to dismantle and rebuild his existence as needed.

Broadly speaking, this is also where numerology operates: on undefined reality, analyzing all possible manifestations and refining them into optimal equations. Overload reflects that principle. It is Roa’s imposition of precise structure onto the formless: a Reality Marble of potential collapsed into actualization. When used offensively, it drags the target into this void, breaking down their physicality and erasing their current instantiation, potentially forcing them into a reincarnative cycle, if they can even return at all.

Interestingly, Roa can use Overload even in his SHIKI incarnation, despite only displaying basic numerology-based lightning magecraft at that stage. However, this is not inconsistent when we understand how Reality Marbles work lore-wise. A Reality Marble is not a spell derived from training or magical capacity; it is the direct externalization of the user’s soul, their innermost world and identity. Roa’s soul retains all his accumulated knowledge, metaphysical development, and structure across reincarnations, even if his current vessel lacks the magical circuits or aptitude to express them fully. In SHIKI’s body, Roa cannot fully manifest the Marble but can partially open a gateway to it. This results in a more limited form of Overload, seen as a shadowy arm pulling the victim into a mysterious portal, rather than a full internal world overwriting external reality. The “grab and drag” mechanism reflects both SHIKI’s physical limitations and Roa’s clinical, calculated nature: he doesn’t overwhelm with scale but executes with efficiency. This portal likely leads to the same undefined sea of potential tied to Roa’s reincarnation system: a space of formless calculation where the target is disassembled and “processed” like a corrupted equation. In this sense, Overload remains consistent with Roa’s nature; his inner world is still active but projected in a narrow and surgical form due to the limits of his current host.

----

That brings this thread to an end. As we’ve seen, there’s far more to Roa than just his reincarnation system, which, when understood through the lens of his numerology and the absorption of Arcueid’s essence, still reveals itself as one of the most profound metaphysical achievements in the entire verse.