Explaining the difference in power between Fate and Tsukihime

This will be a brief thread explaining how strong Fate and Tsukihime stands in comparison to each other.

First off, it's important to clarify that I will be exclusively referencing pre-2013 Fate lore. This is because it predates the major retcons introduced in works like Fate/Extella, Fate/Grand Order, and the Tsukihime Remake. These newer entries have effectively isolated the original continuity, with even Kara no Kyoukai being rewritten under Ufotable and Nasu's more 'virtuous' modern direction, one that stands in stark contrast to his original self, who actually authored the older continuity. 

Now, an important premise for this comparison is addressing the exaggerated hype around Servants, a task that’s surprisingly easy, since the original source material makes it clear that while Servants are powerful, they’re far from unbeatable, especially when compared to figures in the older Type-Moon works.

But before going into the actual showings though, I want to address something important:

Nasu's Word of God Statements Are Irrelevant:

Nasu has repeatedly contradicted his story, lore, and even his other interview statements countless of times, beyond just mere powerscaling.

The greatest example of Nasu screwing up basic Lore is him stating that KnK and Tsukihime are different timelines because Aoko's age doesn't add up in them, with her in KnK in the year 1998 only being a bit older than Shiki Tohno, as opposed to Tsukihime, where she is much older. And he also states that she is not a magician yet in KnK:

Other than that... oh, right, there's Aoko's age. If Rakkyo and Tsukihime were the same world then Aoko would only be a little bit older than Tohno Shiki. The Aoko in Rakkyo has not yet gained the title of "Miss Blue", and is still training in Misaki Town.

It's probably best to think of it as subtly shifted parallel worlds. - Link

Yet this is directly contradicted in KnK itself several times. Aoko in that very novel was stated to have been in high school eight years ago from 1998.

"I guess it's a few years back now. Around the time when my little sister was entering high school, roughly eight years ago now". - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

She is also clearly stated to be a magician twice in KnK (with magicians sometimes being called wizards in some translations):

"Currently there's only one magician in this country, so basically that kind of ward just can't be formed." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 4

"You are right. That is why a wizard was a feared figure in the past, and why being one could even be called a job. These days, though, it's different, isn't it? Strictly speaking, they aren't needed, the things called mages. These days, magic itself is disappearing. After all, you can count on your fingers the number of things that are impossible for humanity, can't you? Whatever the case, they say that there are only about five wizards in the world today." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

This isn't an isolated case either: take, for example, when Nasu was asked why Shiki couldn’t kill words in KnK Chapter 6. He claimed that her Mystic Eyes of Death Perception can only kill things that "physically decay:"

Q: Seeing as how Shiki wasn't able to kill words, I'd like to know, how far does her capability to understand death actually extend? <The Red Loser Isn't a Loser!>

Nasu: Well, it's just a rule of thumb, but if it's the normal Shiki then she can kill everything that physically decays. The thing with words is that she doesn't regard their death as "decay" but rather "fading into oblivion".

Takeuchi: Ah, so it's a problem of recognition, then.

Nasu: Of course, that realm of recognition is already no problem at all for the inhuman Miss " ". -Kara no Kyoukai Movie Pamphlet Q&A Chapter 6 – "Oblivion Recorder"

This is an absurd statement, considering Chapter 5 explicitly establishes that MEoDP can kill intangible and formless concepts, hence why Shiki was able to escape Araya’s infinite void. If we were to take Nasu’s comment seriously, KnK would have ended at Chapter 5 because Shiki never would have escaped. No, scratch that, it would have ended at Chapter 3, since Asagami’s distortions were already non-physical. And this isn’t just a powerscaling issue; it’s a direct contradiction of the plot. This passage alone destroys this asinine assertion from Nasu:

Surrounded by walls that cannot be destroyed by any physical impact, this closed world is an inescapable cage. You sealed Shiki within there, and you found solace in that. Certainly, it is perfect. However, such things won't work against 'it.' Just as magic is omnipotent in civilized society, 'it' conflicts with beings like us who live by concepts. We pose a threat to common sense, but─── Shiki is the grim reaper to the unconventional, as you should have experienced."

An enclosed, infinite space with no exit was impenetrable to conventional means. Since it had no form, physical weapons could not touch it. But Ryougi Shiki's power was meant to target such intangible things.

But, Araya Souren, because you're a mage, you treated magic as absolute. Closing off a space doesn't matter. Something that abstract—she'd break through it with ease!" - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

There's also a passage where Shiki corrects God's Word on her not being able to kill words, as they end like everything else:

The magus once said, "Even I cannot kill words." But still, they too will die someday.

Everything will fade, disappear, and die.

Otherwise, the boundary between past and future would blur. Because things can’t be retrieved once lost, we treasure them so they won’t disappear.

...But why is something called "not eternal" just because it vanishes?

Even if something fades away or is forgotten, its existence doesn’t change. The only thing that changes is our own minds, the way we perceive it.

I should have told him.

That’s why... there’s no point in seeking eternity in oblivion.

What is meant to be forgotten will naturally be forgotten, slipping into sleep without further distortion. The act of forgetting itself is one way to define eternity.

Now I understand why the boy named SHIKI, who once existed within me, chose to forget those days.

He treasured those memories by letting them rest, so that they wouldn’t alter the heart that lives on in the present.

Even if I can’t recall them, the fact that they existed will never change.

...That magus must have known this, yet he couldn’t accept it as an answer. Lacking a true self, he clung to words that wouldn’t die, craving eternity in something certain.

─── How unfulfilling.

An eternity that can be put into words is worthless. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 6

The argument Nasu presents in the Q&A, suggesting that Shiki lacks the ability to recognize the “death” of words because they don’t “decay” but “fade into oblivion”, is rendered meaningless when Shiki herself states that fading into oblivion is a form of death. The very fact that she acknowledges oblivion as part of the natural cycle of existence proves that it falls within her domain of mortality.

This shows Nasu doesn't even remember basic lore and massively contradicts such things. It's likely because Nasu was heavily regulated on what he wrote, with others probably filling in the details on things. Or he's just senile. Doesn't matter. Regardless, he's not a reliable person, as he does not remember the contents of his own works in later years.

Nasu has in fact been forced to revise various works to extreme levels due to his team, which shows that he shouldn't be regarded as the sole author that wrote everything by himself. In fact, this explains why his recollection of these works are terrible partially.

Here's one example of Nasu being forced to conform to his team's vision:

"His role did not exist in Old Tsukihime. However, in the process of paring the length of the game down to ten days, the art director came forward with the proposal that the first half of the game should be livened up a bit.

'Eh? But I don’t wanna have an enemy besides Roa!'

The scenario director threw a tantrum, but in the end he relented and pulled Nrvnqsr out of the Mushroom Warehouse.

And, presto! Suddenly the flow of the story was just how the art director wanted it.

…Clever bastard." - Tsukihime Data Collection

He also was forced to rewrite Tsukihime from scratch:

The pilot version of Tsukihime created in 1999.

Believe it or not, the game period was one month! Shiki’s personality was really aggressive in this version. Perhaps it was influence from the visual novel “One: To the Radiant Season,” which the scenario director had just played.

…Honestly, he must have been out of his mind.

“Too long! At this rate, you’re never gonna finish!”

The sagacious art director offered words of wisdom, but the scenario director stubbornly refused to heed them.

January 2000. In the end, he finally admitted his mistake and lowered the span of the game from one month to ten days.

However, because the plot had to be redone from scratch to account for the new time frame, the two weeks that had already been written were torn up and thrown out entirely. Given that the planned release date for the finished work had been that summer, it was painful act that felt close to giving up. - Tsukihime Data Collection

Here is him adding the Kohaku Route due to the art director's "passionate arguments":

……Of course, there was some resistance. As far as the scenario director was concerned, Hisui and Kohaku were a paired set, so something like individual routes was totally impossible, and on top of that the scenario programming and event graphics for the Hisui and Akiha routes still weren’t even finished even though the winter Comiket was only three months away! It was only due to the art director’s passionate arguments that we decided to attempt the impossible in the end. - Tsukihime Data Collection

Entire story arcs from FSN (and Zero by extension) of his were scrapped, like Mash being in FSN:

A heroine candidate that vanished without a trace during the plotting stage.

She was conceived of as an "abandoned puppy" type heroine, who killed her Master and went on a rampage.

As a Servant of the shield, she was going to be a rival to Saber, the Servant of the sword, but…

Just like Gilgamesh, she would have been a Servant that had remained behind after the previous Grail War.

Unfortunately, though, she had to be cut for the sake of keeping things manageable for the player.

After all, around this point, the plot itself was starting to stray. Not only Rider, but even Caster was a potential heroine candidate. It was terrifyingly chaotic.

Hmm? Fuji-nee? I don't know what you're talking about, Fuji-nee never had a main route even during the plotting stage. - Fate/side material - Encyclopedia: Stray Servant [Others], page 69

4Gamer： So it really is a shield, then. Did you design her, Takeuchi-san?

Takeuchi: Yes. But that shield girl's design existed before this project began.

Nasu: It never came to be, but when Studio DEEN made their "stay night" anime, it was originally planned to have an original story. This heroine was formally made back then. We felt it was a waste to keep her locked away like that, and she fit right into the story of "FGO", so we decided to make her the main heroine this time around.

4Gamer： So, is her true identity to be revealed at a later date?

Takeuchi: It's too early (laugh). Trying to figure out a heroic spirit's true name-- their identity, is a big part of the enjoyment of "Fate".

Nasu: In "FGO's" case, the servant's identity becomes revealed once players get their hands on them. So I'd be happy if all the players would do their best to avoid spoilers. - Grand Order 4Gamer Interview

So it's clear Nasu has a lot of help in regards to his story, on top of people making him go as far as to rewrite entire stories from scratch. And based off him getting the lore of all series wrong, this seems to apply to every series he wrote the scenario of. 

Why am I bringing all of this up? Well because Nasu has made a lot of asinine power comparisons that are wildly inaccurate and contradictory. Examples are Servant wank, where supposedly Aoko can only fight Servants with average NPs, Shiki Tohno stands no chance against Servants, excluding Types and those that fight them from the list of people who can fight Servants, saying Void Shiki is defensive Servant level, then turning around and saying she's the second strongest in the verse, with even Types and whatnot making it to the top 3, and him contradicting even other interview statements, like him in the past saying a serious Gilgamesh would solo the Fifth War in a single night, and then later saying Saber Alter could match Living Gilgamesh. Even other writers have made fun of Nasu's absurd claims:

Type-Moon France: If Gilgamesh was serious when he fought Saber, who would have won?

Urobuchi: The problem is that a serious Gilgamesh doesn't exist. But if it ever happened and he was fighting Saber, no-one would have won. Nasu said that.

Kawa-Soft: Ah!

Everyone: [laughs]

TMF: We can't say anything.

KS: We give up.

- Interview with Gen Urobuchi at l’Épitanime 2013

Furthermore, Nasu himself doesn't even consider his own word absolute, considering when someone asked him a question, he literally told them that they'll have to ask Gen Urobuchi the question instead:

Nasu: You want to know exactly how powerful Kirei is? You'll have to ask Gen Urobuchi. (laughs)

Takeuchi: Well, after being doused in so much of the Holy Grail, I imagine his physical body has been weakened significantly from his "Zero" days.

Nasu: For someone who died like that to be alive ten years later is quite a feat in and of itself. - Fate/complete material II: Character Material - Characters: Kirei Kotomine, p.066-069

I bring all of this up to stop any nonsensical claim that "Servant equals Dead Apostle Ancestors" or "Kirei beats Ciel" (Which even Nasu's WoG wankers do not actually agree with and would try infinite mental gymnastics to dismiss while still claiming his statements are completely reliable). 

HOWEVER, even if we go off what Nasu has said, he himself considers the Nasu of old a completely different person that is dead:

> Nasu: When I wrote Kara no Kyoukai, I felt resistance towards so many things—society, entertainment, culture—and it was my motivation to write the story. Now, I am thrilled to be writing from a place of gratitude, though with just a touch of sadness. It feels like the old Nasu Kinoko has passed on. I suppose you could say I've gone under a heavy detox, and feel much more virtuous now (laughs). - Kara no Kyoukai Movie - Nasu Kinoko Interview

He goes further to say that the sequel to Kara no Kyoukai years later was a "Frankenstein" sequel to a "perfect ending" and didn't reflect the original intent or message of the story at all. Nasu himself already knows that his later shit is in direct contradiction to the original works. On top of that, Nasu admits that the statements he makes contradict each other.

He admits to having a plothole-ridden verse where multiple writers and information managers must help him keep it together, with him admitting to his statements contradicting each other:

Nasu:

As Yakitori mentioned, if that happens, the setting and worldview will gradually become megastructures (huge artificial structures). It's difficult to organize these increasingly large settings, but fortunately, since I started working on FGO, the number of "information managers other than myself" has increased, including other writers and Rasengr.

They'll say, "Huh? Nasu-san, what you said just now is different from what you said three years ago," and I'll say, "Hahaha, I guess that happens sometimes☆," but if there's a really fatal mistake in the settings, I'll fix it. That's how I'm doing it, just barely.

So even if the details of the information and setting get a little shaky, as long as you have a firm grasp on what you're going to write about from the very beginning, like "I'm going to write about this theme for the next 10 years," I think the river will flow.

- [Special Discussion] ‘Fate’ Kinoko Nasu × ‘Honkai: Star Rail’ Scenario Writer Yakitori — The Inherited “Ode to Humanity” and the Generational Shift of Creators

So Nasu already agrees with me that his statements are contradictory, which destroys their credibility. And of course, before anyone mentions it, I know he claims he will fix any major contradictions in the series, but this is just one of his many empty claims.

So it's clear that any argument for Servants that relies on WoG statements from an author who can't even recall basic lore and has one statement of his contradict another doesn't work. And said author claimed the past him who made the Old TM continuity, such as the original Tsukihime, is gone now to the point he considers him a dead person who wouldn't even agree with the current direction he has taken Type-Moon.

So with that out of the way:

Debunking Servants wank:

Servants are consistently subsonic:

First example of their slow speed is Medusa's Pegasus Noble Phantasm only charges at 400–500 km/h:

This is not a case of travel speed =/= combat speed either, as it clearly states Pegasus's charge is the way it attacks.

Saber's motorcycle was also only moving at 400 km/h, yet this speed was enough to thrill her and make mere pieces of wood lethal to her, if they hit her while she was going at such speeds:

The needle of the speedometer was already damaged and could not be used. Saber’s prana had caused the rushing vehicle to transcend the laws of physics; already the speed was more than 400 kilometers per hour. The pressure released by the magecraft pressed the rear wheel firmly against the cement; even when making - Fate/Zero - Volume 4: Act 14, page 190

Though the tree trunks were all very thick, for the sharp sickles flying at 400 kilometers an hour, it was as easy as sawing wood. The tree trunks that had been instantaneously broken all snapped back and were swept into the air. The sight was like shredding wood shavings, only it was a nightmare a few hundred times more majestic.

Seeing this tremendous scene of destruction, Saber could not help but hold her breath.

“Damn it…!”

The trees that had been swept up into the air descended like rain upon their target, which was obviously the head of Saber who was catching up from behind. To say nothing of being directly hit—at this speed, even if the steering wheel should be gently brushed across, it would be a matter of life and death. - Fate/Zero - Volume 4: Act 14, page 193

400 km/h is nowhere near the speed of sound IRL btw:

You may wonder how they dodge bullets then if they are this slow. Well, we'll get into that and more now.

Kirei's base speed takes as long as 0.3 seconds to attack/throw black keys:

The battle tactic analysis concerning Kotomine Kirei had been conducted based on information from Hisau Maiya, who had fought him twice.

He used Black Keys during ranged battle. A single throw, complete with preparatory movements, could be completed in 0.3 seconds. He could perform four separate throws in 0.7 seconds. His accuracy rate was 100% even when striking down unconfirmed targets, such as the illusions in the Einzbern forest. The blades themselves, half-spiritual entities, could penetrate iron. - Fate/Zero - Volume 4: Act 16, page 432

Kirei needs to multiply his speed and power with two command seals to react to and deflect a shot from Kiritsugu's Contender with a punch:

This movement became a spiral of force. Originally a defensive skill to nullify an opponent’s strike, the martial arts move was performed at a horrific speed after the prana of two Command Seals was infused into it.

The bullet left the barrel at a speed of 2500 inches per second, and was wrapped up in the spiral that moved at a divine speed. Even so, the .30-06 bullet still kept a straight path. It tore apart the Kevlar sleeve, clashing viciously with Kirei’s hardened arm, emitting alien sounds like the clash of two mill stones.

The scattering sparks seemed to distort the laws of physics; a supernatural phenomena where approximately 3000 pound-per-inch kinetic energy was forced to bend to the power of magecraft. A chill ran down Kiritsugu's spine as he watched the second Contender bullet's trajectory change. The bullet flew off at an angle, into the distance. -Fate/Zero - Volume 4: Act 16, page 445

This is where I point out that the speed of bullets and sound in Fate are far slower than they are in real life.

It says that the bullet shot from the Contender moves at 2,500 inches per second, but the speed of sound (Mach 1) in real life is 13,503.9 inches per second.

The Contender is not an outlier either, as its initial velocity is 2.5x higher than 9mm rounds from Kiritsugu's Calico, with seven times the destructive capacity:

Volumen Hydragyrum had already adapted to the best physical shape to protect against the Calico. However, the initial velocity of the .30-06 Springfield is 2.5 times higher than the 9mm bullets, and its destructive power seven times the latter. - Fate/Zero Volume 2: Act 6, page 253

I also doubt this is a mistranslation, as while I can't find the Japanese raws, it exists in another translation from Tsuki Baka > here <, on top of every translation in every language using meters instead of inches, results in the same measurements, as you can see in one translation > here <, where it says the Contender's initial velocity is 63.5 meters per second. And lo and behold, it lines right up with the English version using western measurements:

Hell, this lines up with Kirei's base speed a bit better. We know the stat boost he gets from the command seals isn't many times higher than his normal speed, as Kiritsugu can keep up with him using Triple Accel, which boosts his speed by three times:

“Time Alter: Triple Accel!”

Kiritsugu leapt toward Kirei as he uttered the forbidden spell. His unpredictable acceleration caught Kirei off-guard. One blow from the hardened walnut wood snapped Kirei’s right radius and ulna. The Executor's right arm was destroyed.

As he struck with his right hand, Kiritsugu drew the dagger by his waist using his left. With one eye and one arm ruined, it didn’t matter how great Kirei’s martial art skills were; victory would belong to Kiritsugu as long as he continued to move at three times his top speed. - Fate/Zero - Volume 4: Act 16, page 448 - 449

Kiritsugu's base speed is beneath Kirei's, as Kiritsugu hasn't trained his body to its upmost limits via martial arts, etc., as he's an assassin who uses firearms.

If Kirei's command seal stat boost was so high that it made him go from 0.3 seconds to throw out attacks, to being able to dodge how fast bullets would generally be in real life, it would allow him to completely and utterly speedblitz Kiritsugu, even if he used Square Accel, yet he never did that.

Thankfully, for consistency's sake, this lines up better with bullets not being nearly as fast as they are in real life.

So Kiritsugu and Kirei are subsonic (by IRL/normal standards) and so are their firearms.

So what does this have to do with Servants?

Well, a weaker version of Kirei that is older and no longer in his prime is able to keep up with a Servant (True Assassin) to the point it was forced to lure him into an area to kill him by using its Noble Phantasm, as it was unable to take him down, at least efficiently, with its normal attacks, which are stated to both test the opponent and intend to kill the opponent:

True Assassin then fires off his Noble Phantasm, to which Kirei is able to react to and hit True Assassin as well.

However, Kirei's nature of not having a real heart counters True Assassin's Noble Phantasm in the same way True Assassin's nature as a Servant prevents him from receiving lethal damage from the Black Keys.

Kirei wins by erasing True Assassin's master, which makes him no longer resistant to Kirei's abilities, as he is not anchored to this world by another person.

However, if True Assassin could truly blitz him, this wouldn't matter. He would be slowly losing magical energy without his master, but he says it would take days.

Despite this, he's not confident in facing a now injured and tired Kirei that can kill him, meaning True Assassin cannot speedblitz him:

This all lines up with the fact that NP-tier/vehicle-assisted-tier speed for Servants is only around twice as fast as Kirei/Kiritusgu's Contender:

So without an NP or vehicle amping their speed, they'd be even slower than this and more so around Kirei's speed.

Also, Saber struggled to defend against Lancelot's SMG. It was amped to the status of a Noble Phantasm, but not only was this amp only stated to increase its power and infuse it with prana, as opposed to stating there's a speed increase, but we know the amp couldn't have been huge, as it took time for it to even fully pierce a truck, which Saber used as cover:

Saber was so restricted by the curtain of bullets that she could not close in; she looked around in search of a method by which she could return from certain defeat. Then, she saw a small truck parked in a lot at the corner of the car park. “— That’s it!” Accepting the risk that she could be forced into the corner with no route of retreat, Saber dashed toward the vehicle she had set her eyes on. Berserker pursued her as she fled, at the same time shooting at random with the firearms in his hands. Saber made a ferocious step that narrowly preceded the howling bullets, dashing to the back of the truck. She brandished the flat of her blade upward, flinging the structure of the vehicle into the air. At that point, the rain of bullets targeting Saber crumpled the truck as if it had been a paper model. Saber continued to hide behind the structure of the truck, pieces of which had been scattered all over, using her shoulder to halt the rotating chassis. In this manner, she dashed toward Berserker. Berserker continued to shoot, using the machine gun to mercilessly smash the structure of the truck to iron chips. Even though the heavy frame of the truck quickly met its disintegrated fate, from Saber’s perspective, as long as the ‘temporary shield’ could close the distance and bring Berserker into proximity of her sword’s attack, it would be enough. - Fate/Zero - Volume 4: Act 16, page 367 - 368

It also states that no Heroic Spirit could handle the speed of the M61 autocannon:

However – no matter how extraordinary the Heroic Spirit may be, the 12,000 rounds-per-minute of the pride of America's General Electric, the M61 autocannon, presented an unmanageable amount of shots - Fate/Zero - Volume 3: Act 10, page 214 - 215

Before anyone brings up Strange/Fake and claims Gilgamesh has "lightning-timing" feats, it's important to understand what actually happened. All he did was deflect an arrow that was durable, not fast, enough to bypass his automatic defenses. The text explicitly states that the arrow was struck by bolts of lightning multiple times but continued moving regardless, meaning its resistance, not its speed, was noteworthy. Claiming this as a speed feat is like crediting someone for putting their hand in fire for a split second without being burned, when the real reason is just minimal exposure rather than reflexes.

Moreover, Gilgamesh had already perceived the arrow in advance and understood its nature and trajectory via his SNI, meaning there was no need for instantaneous reaction: it was a calculated interception. It’s also worth noting that Servants in Strange/Fake appear more impressive than their mainline counterparts, possibly due to differences in that world’s rules or because the Grail War containers used there are superior. Regardless, none of this proves lightning-speed reactions, especially when that same arrow is explicitly described as only supersonic, and Fate’s depiction of supersonic speed tends to be much slower than in real-life physics.

And for those who insist on using Fate/GO, thinking it somehow buffs Servants, it explicitly does not. Here's just a few examples:

“The most powerful creation on this planet” flies at 500 km/h.

His speed was "very impressive, even by Gilgamesh's standards" and possibly beyond Gilgamesh's rival and equal, the original Enkidu:

The combined speed of Tiamat and Ritsuka's group moving toward each other was approximately 5 meters per second:

The list goes on and on with Fate/GO, to the point they're even weaker in general that Zero and FSN, to the point Servant-level entities are threatened by an army of normal knights:

And Demon God Pillars, which take multiple Servants to defeat, can get defeated by the United States army:

Or non-magical castle walls cucking them:

This is just the tip of the iceberg too.

Servants are consistently around wall level:

Yep, their strength and durability are not that insane in the source material either.

Lancelot, who is of the Berserker class no less, took three hits to bust down an iron door:

“Really, you’re just –”

Before Irisviel finished speaking, the underground storage suddenly began to shake violently .

Maiya rushed to Irisviel and held her shoulders, quickly switching to battle mode. Her gaze became as sharp as a blade, and she grabbed her light machine gun with her right hand and aimed it at the iron doors of the underground storage.

The underground storage shook once again. This time, the thick and heavy iron door deformed with a violent impact from the outside, as if someone outside was powerfully banging on it. It was a terrible feat only possible through use of a mechanical crane. For the two participants of this Heaven’s Feel, it wasn’t something worthy of surprise – rather, they only felt despair.

A third shockwave. Before the iron doors were destroyed, the earthen walls around them could no longer take such a powerful impact and collapsed first. - Fate/Zero - Volume 4: Act 13, page 128 - 129

Saber nearly dies from getting flung into a wall at 200 km/h (does that speed range sound familiar?):

Rin's strongest jewels combined are only strong enough to destroy the church:

Despite this, Caster must resort to absorbing it with her cape, as opposed to cancelling out with equal power:

These same jewels killed Berserker instantly, blowing off his head, with him only surviving due to regenerating said head, as he needs to be killed 12 times in total to stay down:

This means a building level attack of this magnitude is capable of one-shotting a Servant with very high stats, as other Servants do not need to be killed 12 times to stay down.

And let us not forget that the SMG Lancelot had, as shown in the speed section, were a threat to Saber, yet took repeated shots to pierce a truck she was using as a shield:

Saber was so restricted by the curtain of bullets that she could not close in; she looked around in search of a method by which she could return from certain defeat. Then, she saw a small truck parked in a lot at the corner of the car park. “— That’s it!” Accepting the risk that she could be forced into the corner with no route of retreat, Saber dashed toward the vehicle she had set her eyes on. Berserker pursued her as she fled, at the same time shooting at random with the firearms in his hands. Saber made a ferocious step that narrowly preceded the howling bullets, dashing to the back of the truck. She brandished the flat of her blade upward, flinging the structure of the vehicle into the air. At that point, the rain of bullets targeting Saber crumpled the truck as if it had been a paper model. Saber continued to hide behind the structure of the truck, pieces of which had been scattered all over, using her shoulder to halt the rotating chassis. In this manner, she dashed toward Berserker. Berserker continued to shoot, using the machine gun to mercilessly smash the structure of the truck to iron chips. Even though the heavy frame of the truck quickly met its disintegrated fate, from Saber’s perspective, as long as the ‘temporary shield’ could close the distance and bring Berserker into proximity of her sword’s attack, it would be enough. - Fate/Zero - Volume 4: Act 16, page 367 - 368

And again, don't think Fate/GO changes this. There are infinite examples of them not being stronger. Mordred needs to use her NP that is amped even further to unnatural levels to destroy a mountain, with the resulting explosion killing her and every other Servant around her, if she fired it:

Living GO Gilgamesh (which is wanked to multiversal by people) was injured by a generic enemy that normal Servants fighting along side him could keep up with:

And again, let's not forget how the U.S. army would defeat a Servant+-tier Demon God Pillar:

The list is so vast that I'm not going to bother going further for now.

So, how does Tsukihime stacks up in comparison?

Tsukihime scaling:

Starting off, Wallachia using only 30% of Arcueid's power as a Tatari copy was able to damage Sion: 

With Sion having quite literally survived Warcueid slamming the Moon into her:

And even Warcueid himself seemingly took no noticeable damage from his Moon Drop:

["But the Moon is not as large as the real Moon!"]

Not everything in fiction is drawn to scale, not to mention this takes place in the Millenium Castle Brunestud reality marble. The size of the castle and land is completely unknown. Besides, I could equally employ that logic, by pointing out that the Moon is far bigger than our real world counterpart in some panels, but I'm not since it's obviously done for dramatic effect. It's inconsistent to ignore panels where the moon is visibly larger than the real one, yet overanalyze scenes where it appears smaller. 

Arcueid's ability is canonically creating a mirror image of the Moon:

So it's of the same size. Criticizing its size based on comparison with a “castle” (whose size we don't know) in a non-real space (whose dimensions we also don't know) is a flawed argument from the start. Especially since reality marbles distort scale, perception, and distance by design. This is like looking at a close-up of a planet in a stylized animation and saying it’s “not actually that big” because of how it's framed next to a mountain.

Additionally, at 100% of her power, Arcueid is consistently described as being Crimson Moon's equal:

Arcueid after she has succumbed to her vampiric impulse and lost her ability to reason.Though regarded as equivalent to the Crimson Moon, she is a completely different entity. You could say she’s the materialized form of Arcueid’s overflowing vampiric impulse. When Berserk Arcueid appears, Arcueid herself is freed from her desire to drink blood. - Melty Blood Act Cadenza PS2 Manual - Dictionary: Berserk Arcueid [Person's name • True Ancestor], p.050

Another name for the organism that was used as the template for the True Ancestors. Also known as the Crimson Moon Brunestud. After he vanished, individuals close to him in power started being honored with the title of Brunestud. However, in the long history of the True Ancestors, only two have ever received the name. - MB Act Cadenza PS2 Manual: Tsukihime Dictionary

This makes Arcueid scale to the Ultimate Ones physically. Even if normal Arcueid only has 30% of her power available, that still means she has 30% of a Type's physical power. First thing to note is that Judge was able to split a continent in half with her death cry:

This was just caused by her screaming her last breath upon dying. Needless to say, an actual attack of any kind would be far superior to this.

This is relevant, as the Ether Liners are overall comparable to the Hundred A-Rays, which would include the Six Sisters at the top (as evident by the fact one killed Judge):

Types can fight both of these groups, which, while it would logically be primarily a reality warping battle, should include physicals and whatnot as well if the opportunity presents itself. And Type-Jupiter's dying core going haywire after being defeated by Ado Edem was able to scorch the western continent, which has been calced at continental:

I am not considering the low-end for two reasons. For one, even he says the Americans are the western continent by technicality, but not only that, it's implied that the Land of Steel only had one supercontinent that was split in half by Judge's scream. There is only the two known continents known as the eastern and western one respectively after she split them.

This and the moon drop showing should put Arcueid's physical power in the continental ranges.

As a final note, even if not up to par with what was mentioned so far, Arcueid also did this in the manga by raising her hand:

Furthermore, Arcueid is either superior or capable of fighting against most of the 27 Dead Apostle Ancestors from a physical standpoint. DAAs are outright compared to Merem Solomon's Divine Beasts:

Introduction - Four Great Demon Beasts

Four Demon - The Great Beast.

The familiars that serve as limbs for Merem Solomon, the Dead Apostle who is both one of the 27 Ancestors and the Burial Agency.

It is said that each one is equal to a single Ancestor. - Character Materials - The Four Great Demon Beasts

Said Divine Beasts are stated to be 200 meters long and as large as a mountain, capable of "crushing the world" :

Explanation 03 - Demon of the Right Leg

Class: King of the Earth

User Wish: Manifestation of divine punishment and huge tsunami

Design reference: The animal sculptures and stuffed animals decorating the temple, and also the temple itself

The black dog of destruction. The bell of the end. The dog of gods. The whale dog.

The demon of conquest and destruction that Merem prefers to drag along with him. It doesn't have any specific powers, but just having a huge body close to 200 meters in length is enough to qualify it as a "demon". - Character Materials - Four Great Demon Beasts

The whole forest shook, and suddenly, one of the boy's legs ruptured.

If there was such a thing as a god's beast, then it would refer to something like that.

A dark mass. A silhouette like a whale stood up from the middle of the forest.

Were there so many birds in this forest of death? A flock of wild birds, big enough to cover the stars, fly up.

The black whale, made a sound like a scream.

Something was clinging at an alarming rate, starting from the legs of the giant beast.

It was a group of trees, literally running over the black skin of the whale.

The enormous beast, which had the size of a mountain, was covered entirely by trees in less than a minute, and halted, becoming a new part of the forest.

The beast that would stomp and crush the world was, however, defeated by the corrosion of the world it should crush. - Tsukihime 2: Talk

And this is just their sheer size, nevermind their actual attack potency, which again would be in the continental ranges due to the aforementioned showings.

So how does the main cast scale to all of this?

Well, Ciel is significantly superior to Sion:

And Sion can dodge attacks from and land hits on Wallachia in Arcueid's body, who can use 30% of her power:

Wallachia having access to 30% of Arcueid's power:

Even in the game, there are certain routes where it seems Sion had a more primary role in defeating Warcueid, despite having Shiki helping her:

Arcueid(Tatari): "That's surprising. You really do have some aptitude after all, Sion."

Sion: "gasp, pant, ah────with this, I'll finally......!"

Arcueid(Tatari): "Yes, you win. I'll give you that. So I'll just disappear now. ───And then, you can fight hard again."

Sion: "......? I, what......?"

Arcueid(Tatari): "Enough of this True AnceSTOR already. I HaVE to resume my reaCHINg for the Sixth unTIL the CRImson Moon comes OnCE agAIn."

Sion: "......! Shiki, please kill me......!"

Shiki: "Eh──stu, stupid, you think I can do that!?"

Sion: "Just hurry! If you don't, I'll────"

Arcueid(Tatari): "Become Tatari. My ChiLD, GivE me that WeLL prePAred body of Eltnam......!" - Melty Blood - Route 2/Goodbye

Ciel should be superior to this 30% Arcueid, considering she performed better against Sion than Wallachia Arcueid did, even though both were above Sion.

Sion being around those tiers is further backed up by her deflecting an attack from Wallachia meant for Arcueid:

Furthermore, Sion was capable of contending with the real Arcueid earlier on, and forced her to get "a little serious" (Use her Marble Phantasm):

(Oh and no, the barrel replica is an unique conceptual weapon, and is also described as a "god killer". Nothing suggests its rounds has to be as slow as conventional bullets. And Arcueid dodged it anyway while off guard by simply tilting her head a little)

And Arcueid ends up complimenting Sion for being able to follow her moves, showing that she isn't that far behind in terms of pure physical stats:

Even the guidebook says her physical prowess is exceptional and rivals a Dead Apostle (Which would refer to the Ancestors in this context, since the guidebook strangely uses just "Dead Apostle" to refer to all of them):

Despite being an alchemist she possesses envious level of physical prowess, which rivals or surpasses that of a Dead Apostle. - Melty Blood Official Strategy Guide - Sion Eltnam Atlasia

As previously mentioned, Ciel is significantly above this version of Sion. However, Ciel herself isn't among the highest in the verse's hierarchy. Roa effortlessly defeats her and is considered too powerful for her to face directly, according to Ciel's own admission. She's also uncertain whether she can quickly kill SHIKI. Akiha, in her base form, can contest with Ciel and has the potential to easily vaporize her once she transforms. Ciel also only barely defeats Nrvnqsr, who was using his more grounded beasts, despite being in her powered state. Even Sion eventually surpasses Ciel in base power. Ciel acknowledges that Sion grew stronger in the first Melty Blood, setting the precedent for her continued growth over time.

Additionally, in Melty Blood: Act Cadenza, White Len traps Arcueid within her personal realm, Summer Snow, cutting her off from Gaia's backup. Under these circumstances, Arcueid evaluates White Len as being either equal to or possibly slightly stronger than herself. This positions White Len as another useful benchmark for 30% of Arcueid's base physical power. Notably, nearly every character in Melty Blood is capable of defeating White Len in combat, further emphasizing the overall power level of the cast.

Arcueid aside, Nanaya Shiki has a direct continental feat in a much weaker Tatari manifestation (which a good amount of characters can contest), who physically destroyed (As he lacks MEoDP in that iteration) Nrvnqsr, who requires the firepower to obliterate a whole continent in order to be destroyed:

In Melty Blood, Nanaya Shiki appears as Tohno Shiki’s anxieties given form. He uses the Nanaya martial arts that Shiki should have learned, but unlike Shiki he does not possess the mystic eyes of death perception. According to Miyako, he is her “wild big brother.” Also, perhaps it is due to Wallachia’s influence, but he is prone to somewhat theatrical elocution. - Tsukihime Plus Period - Nanaya Shiki [Person]

Nrvnqsr's durability being continental is due to a culmination of his lives (not even all of them either), which means it would also translate to his overall stats, as evident by the fact he gets stronger and faster when condensing his lives into one:

It’s important to note, as highlighted in the scan where Nrvnqsr explains his Soil of Genesis technique, that the 500 lives referenced are only a fraction of his total 666 lives. This means that destroying his full body would require a power greater than that of a continental strike. Additionally, if Nrvnqsr were to use the 999th Beast, which condenses all of his individual beasts into a single entity, his durability would increase even further. 

Also, while not as quantifiable as the previous showings, there is also Aoko Aozaki being millions of times stronger than Touko's magic crests:

Touko's primordial runes were the result of amping her runes tens of millions of times. And they were only several times more powerful than Aoko's magic bullets. Several times generally refers from three to five times, unless there is additional context (Which there is none here). We in fact saw that even Aoko's mere voice could negate Touko's runes:

Touko's runes at that point were enhanced by her magical crests to the point of being able to easily counter teen Aoko's strongest magical attack, which was stated to be capable of destroying an entire school building:

And even Aoko's reinforced physical attacks could snap trees despite her holding back:

So Prime Aoko (The one that scales to Arcueid and Tsukihime) could overwhelm Touko with her mere voice and is around millions of times more powerful than her. Despite Touko being able to negate a large building busting blast (and remember, that's enough firepower to kill even Berserker) by snapping her fingers. With said blast being also significantly above Aoko's basic physical attacks that already could snap trees while holding back (while Zero Kirei needed three strikes using his full body weight to snap a tree, meaning he'd need his command seal amp to even come close). So even this feat is likely continental and consistent with the rest.

With respect to speed, Dead Apostles who are nothing to Arcueid and Ancestors are casual bullet timers:

...Well, actually she's the only person who makes such requests and this was like the only time he we was needed.

Personal firearms have little effect on vampires.

They are show offs who dodge the bullets after they see them. Since surface based attacks can't even touch them, they freely feed on their prey even up to this day.

However. This woman was a fantastic monster who is able to land a shot on their forehead with a hand gun; a point based attack. - Tsukihime 2 : Prelude

As stated here, Ciel’s superior speed and skill are so pronounced that she can hit a Dead Apostle in the forehead even though their physical speed surpasses that of bullets. This clearly illustrates that, for the main cast, these opponents are nothing special at all.

In fact, we know that Marble Phantasm can materialize an alien world of fantasy.

⑥ In the world of Tsukihime, a Marble Phantasm is the materialization of a part of an alien world that exists on top of the normal world, the fantasy world born from the imagination of elemental spirits. Therefore, it is possible for regular humans to wander into a Marble Phantasm. - Colorful MOON Tsukihime

And we know Arcueid can summon her reality where the Millennium Castle is:

This seems irrelevant to speed and more like it belongs in the reality warping category, but no, it's very important. You see, Arcueid manifests things with her thoughts:

In Tsukihime, Arcueid’s marble phantasm is depicted as an ability that allows her to materialize her thoughts. - Melty Blood Official Strategy Guide

We see her do this against Maiko Yamase, where she imagines into reality the area around her to be frozen:

This only fails because Maiko Yamase is beyond mere physical alterations, as she's becoming the True Chaos of creation, but that's besides the point.

Arcueid herself can only do physical alterations here because she's in a weakened state too of course, suppressing her bloodlust and all that, as this is normal Arcueid, not Archetype-Earth or Arcueid before she ever tasted blood, which is what gave her the urge in the first place.

So, how is this related to speed? Well, what she can manifest is directly tied to the speed of her thoughts and imagination. To bring something into existence, she must mentally construct it from the ground up, starting with abstract foundational laws, then elemental structures, down to the smallest particles and systems that define that reality.

This isn’t a case of simply “thinking” an image into being; rather, it’s a metaphysical act of engineering, where every layer of existence must be coherently defined and layered to take shape properly. As seen in the referenced GIF, Arcueid doesn’t “poof” objects or worlds into existence instantaneously. The world she creates visibly unfolds and spreads outward, indicating that the process involves sequential conceptualization and spatial expansion, not mere illusion or shortcut.

While this doesn’t provide a concrete speed feat like “7.5 centillion times FTL,” it implies an incomprehensibly high cognitive and causal-processing speed. After all, Arcueid is able to manifest something on the scale of the Moon, a fully functional celestial body, in real-time combat. That alone puts her in the realm of absurdly FTL+ levels of action and thought, especially given the complexity and precision such a feat requires.

We see Wallachia manifesting as Arcueid and using her power to create a copy of the Moon too:

So this can't be argued to be a gameplay mechanic.

This notion is further supported by Type-Jupiter, whose main body consists of black photon gas capable of infinite expansion and sustained by an artificial sun at its core:

Photon gas consists of light particles moving at light speed in a vacuum. That is true in our physical reality, let alone for a unique alien entity that defies known physical laws, as evidenced by its capacity for infinite expansion. Yet, despite these formidable traits, it was ultimately defeated after intense combat. Given Arcueid’s equivalence to Type-Moon and other Types, she would at least rival this entity’s baseline physical capabilities.

Needless to say, Servants aren't doing shit to any of this.

And even if one chooses to disregard the MFTL+ and continental-level feats attributed to Tsukihime (though there's no reason to do so), the series still establishes a solid foundation of high-tier physicality. For example, Nrvnqsr Chaos's weakest beasts are described as moving faster than the eye can track, while slightly stronger ones are said to be several times faster and more powerful. His mid-tier creatures are capable of feats such as crushing tanks, cracking the ground by simply walking, or possessing immense size. And importantly, these are still among the lower-tier entities in Nrvnqsr’s arsenal.

Despite Nrvnqsr being one of the most physically formidable characters, his true strength lies in his more mythological-level familiars, which he only resorts to when facing true threats. Notably, even Powered Ciel was able to fight off the lesser beasts in the Melty Blood manga.

Hell, even a mere Dead could pierce a wall with their fist:

I dodge the sweep of the man's arm.

There is an unpleasant crunching sound.

The man's arm is embedded in the wall... it's buried right into the concrete wall.

He did not hold back an inch. - Tsukihime - Far Side: Akiha's route

Naturally, even basic Dead Apostles like Yumizuka would be far superior to a mere dead, with them being also casual bullet timers according to Tsukihime 2. Yumizuka herself moved faster than Tohno's normal self could perceive and stated it would have been useless even if he had a gun:

Furthermore, in Actress Again, Roa appears in a Tatari manifestation and is capable of using his magecraft again, which are lightning attacks. And since magecraft is basically the creation of natural phenomena through supernatural means, and Roa’s specific system (Numerology) manipulates the numerical structure underpinning reality itself, his lightning should be considered authentic in nature. In fact, it's likely amplified well beyond natural lightning due to his own magical prowess. The system of the world allows phenomena like this to be shaped and enhanced through the user's magical energy and personal nature, meaning Roa’s lightning, especially when used to boost his speed, would exceed normal physical limits.

Importantly, Roa’s performance in this manifestation isn't particularly overwhelming compared to the other fighters. He never blitzes anyone, nor does he dominate with sheer speed. This suggests that his enhanced speed serves more as a baseline level for Tsukihime-tier characters, rather than a high-end feat. Additionally, his opponents aren't simply aim-dodging ranged attacks; Roa uses lightning to augment his movement speed directly across multiple actions, further grounding this level of speed as standard within the verse.

And before you say that Roa's lightning is a gameplay mechanic, he canonically is known to have lightning magecraft and this is a proper move of his. Gameplay mechanics would be things such as how much damage it does, etc. But we know Roa can do this and many people are capable of fighting him in Melty Blood.

Regardless of the scaling method used, Fate falls significantly behind Tsukihime in terms of raw feats. Servants are consistently capped at subsonic speeds with wall-level physical strength and durability, excluding their Noble Phantasms, which function more like special techniques or conceptual weapons rather than reflections of their base stats.

In contrast, Tsukihime characters operate on a vastly higher scale. Even setting aside high-end interpretations, the baseline is already far above Fate. Aoko Aozaki is explicitly millions of times stronger than building-level, while Nrvnqsr’s standard beasts are casually capable of building-level destruction. Even low-tier Dead can punch through concrete walls, and Dead Apostles like Yumizuka are bullet-dodgers who move faster than the eye can track. Additionally, every major combatant in Tsukihime is capable of reacting to Roa’s lightning, which, being magecraft that emulates natural phenomena, is at least as fast as real-world lightning, if not significantly faster due to magical amplification.

And this is merely baseline. High-end feats elevate Tsukihime to an entirely different tier, as the cast has very blatant continental feats and scaling. In terms of speed, 30% Arcueid can manifest realities of Gaia by mentally constructing them piece by piece, such as the Millennium Castle’s reality, each of which functions as its own cosmos. She also wields a significant portion of Type-Moon’s power, rivaling that of Jupiter, a being composed of light-speed particles that transcend known physical laws.

Even from a lore perspective, Servants represent extraordinary humans whose legacies impacted human history, figures later elevated by Alaya. However, Dead Apostles also reflect the peak of human potential, though reached via an alternate path. Through vampirism, they gain extended lifespans and the ability to refine their physical and supernatural attributes indefinitely, often reaching heights far beyond any normal human.

It’s important to distinguish the true nature of Servants. Their original forms are either Heroic Spirits stored within the Throne of Heroes or Counter Guardians employed by Alaya to combat existential threats. These full entities are incredibly powerful, often further amplified by Alaya; an abstract, metaphysical force capable of bestowing conceptual and even causality-altering abilities. The fact that Counter Guardians are deployed to combat True Magic users underscores the sheer scale of Alaya’s reach.

However, the Servants seen in the Fate series are limited incarnations, bound into spiritual vessels via magecraft. These forms are explicitly restricted, created to function within the rules of the Holy Grail War system. As a result, much of the hype surrounding Servants often misattributes their power. It’s not that the individual Servants are the pinnacle, but that Alaya and the full Heroic Spirits in their unrestricted state are. Most Servants, as summoned, are constrained in speed and raw physicality, relying heavily on conceptual Noble Phantasms to overcome stronger enemies.

Given this, there’s no compelling reason to assume Servants are inherently superior to Dead Apostles, especially the high-tier ones. In fact, Fate/Complete Material confirms that members of the Burial Agency, human specialists in anti-vampire warfare, can fight Servants effectively. And Dead Apostle Ancestors, the elite class of vampires, are capable of contending with True Ancestors, the avatars of Gaia’s will, who themselves are planetary-scale beings. This places DAAs on the same level as Alaya’s top agents, if not above, since Gaia is often depicted as holding greater metaphysical authority than Alaya in Type-Moon cosmology.

Supporting this, Fate/Strange Fake confirms that DAAs rival Divine Spirits, which aligns with Tsukihime 2, where each DAA is said to possess power comparable to Merem Solomon’s mountain-sized divine beasts:

Even Kirei Kotomine, when using two Command Spells to temporarily boost himself (despite already being strong enough to keep pace with True Assassin), is only stated to match a standard Dead Apostle, and that amplification is short-lived and harmful to his body:

Monster. There were no other words to describe the man before him. At this moment, Kotomine Kirei’s current combat ability is equal to that of a Dead Apostle - Fate/Zero Act 16

In short, the true top tiers of Fate (Alaya, Heroic Spirits, Counter Guardians) and Tsukihime (Gaia, True Ancestors, Demon Lords) represent abstract forces that define and uphold the laws of reality. Just beneath them, Dead Apostle Ancestors and restrained True Ancestors represent the apex of nature and supernatural evolution, either as planetary enforcers or perfected post-human entities. To compete with them, one must reach the level of Divine Spirits or the greatest mythical figures in human history. Beneath that, we find standard Dead Apostles and Heroic Spirits, while Servants, in particular, are merely constrained echoes, meant to provide mages an edge over other mages or mid-tier supernatural threats, but are far from the top of the power hierarchy.