Debunking generic Shiki Downplay

This will be a short thread debunking some of the strange downgrades made to Void Shiki on VS wiki. These changes were proposed by a user who has repeatedly demonstrated a lack of understanding of Kara no Kyoukai, consistently misinterpreting core concepts and plot points to a questionable degree. Despite these glaring errors, the edits were left in place due to the community’s decision to ignore the user, a decision the mods mistakenly took as a form of silent “agreement.” In truth, no one wanted to waste time debating with someone who disregards the most basic facts.

The main reason for this thread though is that these changes reflect a mindset shared by quite a bit of people on Reddit, so it’s worthwhile to address why this perspective is not only irrational but ultimately self-defeating. It won't take much, as these are the same generic Void downplay arguments we've seen for over a decade.

The holy grail of Void downplay:

Claimed to be capable ofaltering reality on a fundamental level, altering its laws and orders, as well as annihilate it with ease, though this stems from an unreliable statement.

The most common argument against Void is that her powers are “unreliable statements.” This reasoning is fundamentally flawed. Void is an emanation of the One, acting as its direct avatar and sharing its non-dual perspective. She’s Type-Moon’s interpretation of the Nous in classical philosophy, embodying all abstract forms and encompassing every possible concept. This explains why she stated that she knows reality down to “its last atoms”: her knowledge includes every possible form, concept, and reality within Type-Moon’s creation. She even describes herself as an “intellectual nullity” aligned with " ", or the One. In Type-Moon, " " represents the omnipotent singularity that contains all possibilities in unity, a reality so expansive that any specific term is a reduction of what it truly is:

If you really wished to pronounce this term, call it “Kara.”Its meaning varied depending on each individual’s understanding. To put it in simple terms, it was the Spiral of Origin.However, since the Spiral of Origin was called the Spiral of Origin, it was no longer “ ”.To properly express this term was a source of headache during the production of the drama CDs. -Garden of sinners Pamphlet: Kara no Kyoukai Settings Glossary

This is highlighted when Ryougi killed the infinite dimension created by Araya Souren:

Infinity is not “ ”. In order to render infinity, one must define limits. Without limits, infinity does not exist. Infinity can be observed because objects possess limits. Ryougi Shiki was immersed in infinity, but found the non-existent limit and severed it. Of course, limits do not exist within infinity, thus one cannot sever something that does not exist. As a result, escaping from this prison is impossible. However -- - without limits, infinity does not exist. Regardless if a finite wall existed, an limitless world is meaningless before Ryougi Shiki. If there is no limit, then it is not infinity, but “ ”. If limits exist, then Ryougi would find it and cut away everything.…. What is supposed to be an absolute black hole, to an opponent such as Ryougi Shiki is merely a confined dark cell. The magus felt ashamed of himself. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

What this is saying in simple terms is that if something is infinite, it cannot truly be considered "nothing," as it possesses an identity. Every idea or concept has inherent qualities that define it, making it distinct. Thus, even infinite concepts are constrained by their identities. In contrast, The One represents a state of pure nothingness that contains all things in unity, transcending dualities and definitions. This unity exists beyond the constraints of identifiable forms.

This is similar to the example of a triangle: although there are infinite variations of triangles, each is ultimately defined by the structural necessity of three points. Through MEoDP, Shiki perceives the "idea" of these points conceptually, enabling her to see them as a line she can sever, “killing” the infinite space by targeting its conceptual structure. In this way, she turns what should be an impossible, infinite void into something finite and conquerable.

The reason for Void's detachment and boredom stems precisely from her omniscience and her understanding of the nature of existence. As an avatar of The One, Void perceives all of reality as interconnected and unified, with no distinctions between concepts or forms. Her knowledge encompasses all possibilities and abstract concepts, yet this all-encompassing knowledge leaves her detached from human experiences. This perspective leads to a form of existential boredom, as there is no challenge, no unknown, and no real change in her existence. She views everything through a lens of unity and finality, where all things are understood and ultimately meaningless in their individuality:

—The simple truth is that I was born dead. Perhaps brain-dead would be more accurate. Normally a newborn will have an infant's body, and this body in turn will be quickened by the first stirring of what's to become its intellect. I did not have that; I was born with nothing whatsoever. By rights I should have died immediately. That which is near to " " simply must not be born bodily into the world. You heard this from Touko, didn't you? The world itself wards off anything that might disrupt it. Ordinarily, indeed, I should not have been born at all.

—Ordinarily a creature whose being is poured out straight from " " simply dies in its mother's womb. That was my case. But the Ryougi clan possessed a technique for keeping such a thing alive.

—So I was born, alive, but without so much as a stirring of intellect. " " is utter nullity, and thus an intellectual nullity as well. I should simply have "lived" with no cognition of the outside world.

—But not only did they keep me alive, they woke me up. They did not implant some readymade personality into me. They awakened the " " which is my origin. The outside world was thrust upon me.

I - the void and vacant "I" - was forced to look at it. I found it an eyesore. I found it altogether too troublesome. So I in turn thrust it upon those two.

—It was only natural. The outside world, if you could call it that, was the most wearisome thing imaginable. Because it was, all of it, down to the last of its innumerable atoms, "already known" to me.

—But you do have a will. She seemed to him then such a tragic figure that he had to say it. Again she nodded.

—I do, after a fashion. A personality of the flesh as such arises in every human, but ordinarily it does not come to any kind of self-awareness. Usually, before that can happen, the intellect stirs to life. From out of the body, more precisely the brain, the intellect is produced.

—The intellect borne out of the brain's activity becomes a personality and gains executive function over the fleshly body. At that point any personality which dwelt in the flesh becomes meaningless.

—It's because of this that the intellect tends to treat the brain which gave birth to it as if it were something specially set apart from the rest of the fleshly body, even though it is just one part of the whole.

—Software is useless without hardware, but hardware can't function without software. The personality borne of the intellect forgets this truth: it forgets that it is the body's product, and it imagines that it is the creator of this fleshly, embodied "I" which it finds itself to be. That is the ordinary case. I am different only in that the order in which these things happened was different for me.

—Even so, the fact that I'm here, now, talking to you is entirely due to the personality of Shiki. If she wasn't here, I wouldn't even have language. I am, after all, nothing but flesh.

—I think I get it, he said. Your ability to "know" or "perceive" the outside world is dependent on Shiki's personality.

—Correct. I am simply an unpowered piece of hardware. Without the requisite software I am just an inert box.

—I am a hollow container which only gazes inward, which communes solely with death - in other words with what Magi call the "Root", though I see no value in it whatsoever.

—Mind you, right now I think there might be a little value to it after all. I could heal a wound like this, for instance. I could come to your aid. Disturb the universe a little. But you don't wish for any of that, do you?

—No, he answered. Shiki's specialty is breaking things. It would be asking too much. I'd be afraid for myself. How serious, that reply? He gave a light smile. Like a butterfly scattered in the afternoon light, her gaze left him in a moment. She lowered her hand, softly as the snowfall.

—Quite right. Shiki can only destroy. And to you, after all, I suppose I am she.

—Shiki?

A long pause.

—My origin is nihil. From nihil I originated, the flesh that I am, the corpse in the womb to which life was somehow given. That is why Shiki can perceive death. For two years, in her comatose state, she was unable to view the outside world, and could do nothing but gaze into the nihil that Ryougi Shiki "is." More than simply seeing, she felt death.

—All that time she was floating there in that ocean which others call the "swirl of the Root." Shipwrecked all alone in the midst of " ".Yes, indeed. If nihil is her origin, then most likely she wills to bring all things to nought. Shiki is able to kill anything without exception, for that reason alone. The personality, Shiki, strives to negate. Why? Because that is the original pattern of her soul. The inclination to nihil, which ardently wishes the death of all creation.

—That is Shiki's capability. Much like Asagami Fujino, she perceives a unique channel in which things unseen by others become visible. When she "looks" at them, she is seeing a glimpse of the architect's floor-plan for all reality. That is the "swirl of the Root."

—But I can see much further than that. No, rather - I may well be that "swirl" myself.

She was looking him right in the eye, but her tone of voice was insecure, uncertain. As if to let slip, between moments, an utterly incommunicable loneliness.

—The swirl of the Root is a "place" where all causalities interlace, where all things are in potential, and therefore where nothing is whatsoever. That is my true shape. Though I am merely bound to it, I am nonetheless a part of it. And the part and the whole of a nothingness are the same, wouldn't you say?

—So I can do - whatever. Recompose the the laws of nature, revert living beings to their evolutionary forebears. To overturn the system of the world, there's simply nothing to it. It's not a remaking. I simply crush the old one with the new world in its place.

She was faintly smiling as she said that. There was a wry twist to her mouth, as if she was mocking how ridiculous she sounded.

—But it's all so pointless, isn't it? Such a tiresome thing. Such nonsense, you might as well dream it up. As indeed I do. Without seeing, without thinking, without even dreaming

- I dream. - Kara no Kyoukai Epilogue

In very easy terms, "Nothingness" can be seen as the fundamental state of existence before anything is defined or given form. It is not bound by any specific rules, distinctions, or boundaries, and thus has the potential to manifest anything it wants. This state represents absolute freedom because it is not limited by any structure, concept, or definition.

Since "Nothingness" has no boundaries or distinctions, it can transcend any dualities (like existence and non-existence, life and death, etc.). It can take any form or fulfill any purpose because it exists beyond all categories and structures that define reality. This is why Void Shiki, embodying this state, has an almost godlike control over reality, she is not bound by the limitations that govern individual entities or concepts.

In contrast, the world of creation is made up of distinct things, separate entities, concepts, and forces that interact with each other. These entities are part of a larger, interconnected whole, but they are still defined by their individual properties and roles.

Void Shiki, from her perspective as a being of "Nothingness," sees all these separate entities and distinctions as temporary and meaningless. She sees them as something that could easily be undone, transcended, or erased, because they are built upon boundaries and limitations, which she, as "Nothingness," has no need for. Creation is something she observes, but it doesn't have the same weight or importance to her, since she is beyond all distinctions, to her, it is all something that could be reduced back to "Nothing."

This detachment is not because Void’s powers are unreliable, but because she exists in a state where everything is known and nothing surprises her. Her ability to alter reality comes from her alignment with The One, the singularity that transcends all distinctions and definitions. As she stated herself, she can alter natural laws or destroy the current creation and replace it with a new one that works entirely different. However, there is no point to that, as each of those changes would feel fundamentally meaningless, because creation in the first place is just a dream, a reflection of what Void already encompasses. We are talking about someone who sees all of existence as just a thought in her mind, with even a small fraction of her power granting Self-Hypnosis Ryougi the ability to see distance as zero and time as always now.

People who contest Void's abilities with "She hasn't shown these powers" are simply applying a flawed double standard. These same individuals accept characters like Zelretch, the Types, or Arcueid as powerful figures, even though their abilities are often based on similar statements. If we know what a character is capable of through statements, there's no reason to doubt those capabilities, unless they're specifically contradicted by concrete evidence. This is a classic case of confusing absence of evidence with evidence of absence. The fact that Void (and many other powerful characters that these people would instead happily wank) hasn't shown off their full powers in a direct, overt way doesn't mean those powers don't exist. It simply means that there is no clear contradiction to the statements made about their abilities.

Moreover, most of Type-Moon's older stories are told primarily through text, whether in visual novels, light novels, or even the narratives in the Melty Blood fighting games. This means that almost every "feat" is described through narrative or character statements. Even in manga, where feats are depicted visually, the meaning and importance of those feats are often ascribed to them by the context and narrative. Many of the feats we accept as impressive are largely reinforced by statements, not visual depictions. When dealing with universe-level powers and beyond, visual representation becomes even less reliable. We can't depict a universe, a multiverse, or infinite and abstract concepts visually, and thus, we necessarily rely on statements to understand how they function. If you require a visual showing to believe something is true in Type-Moon, you might as well stop debating the entire franchise.

In Void's case, the narrative fully supports her as a near-omnipotent entity. Araya Souren, for instance, wanted to use her body to access Akasha and erase everything, turning all things to Nothingness. Her existence as an artificial avatar of the One created by the Ryougi family further cements her cosmic significance. MEoDP, one of the many powers at her disposal, allows her to "kill" the very abstract concepts that sustain the physical world. Unified Language, which is of the same rank as normal Ryougi Shiki's connection to the Root, allows God's Word to communicate with and even alter the abstract forces that govern existence. Ryougi herself, through her Self-Hypnosis, accesses Void's transcendent perspective, allowing her to unify her intent with reality, ensuring that her strikes will always hit. Even Aoko, using the Fifth Magic (Which she accessed through a state resembling Stillness and aligned with the perspective of the One) defeated the sentient will of the cosmos and imposed her own order on the natural laws.

From a narrative standpoint, Void is the very foundation from which Shiki (Yin) and SHIKI (Yang) emerged. Shiki represents the Yin aspect, which is conceptually tied to the unifying force that connects all things, explaining both her powers (MEoDP, which eliminates the boundaries preventing individual entities or ideas from becoming part of the One) and her character tendencies. Shiki perceives everything as part of a unified whole, leading to her detachment from the world. This detachment and her eventual connection to Mikiya are a reflection of her development, where she finds meaning in a world she generally rejects. On the other hand, SHIKI, representing the Yang, is the creative and chaotic force emanating from the One. This aspect is regulated by Shiki to prevent it from spiraling out of control, as seen in her tendency to suppress her violent impulses. Ultimately, true harmony comes when the boundaries, embodied by Mikiya on a human level and Araya on a cosmic level, are integrated. SHIKI sacrifices himself to ensure Shiki’s stability through Mikiya, reminding her of the possibility for change while grounding her in the stability she needs to thrive.

This philosophical dynamic mirrors the greater narrative of Kara no Kyoukai, the "Boundary of Emptiness", where the One creates the framework for existence to unfold by interacting with Stillness, which enforces identity and boundaries on the infinite possibilities, allowing them to manifest in a tangible way. The title itself encapsulates this tension between the unity of the One and the boundaries that give form and meaning to the world.

The only thing holding Void back is the fact that she is still an avatar of the One, rather than the One itself. She shares its non-dual perspective and transcendence, but she still interacts with the world and the forms, whereas the One remains ineffable. So she is still able to be "contained" within Ryougi's body and suppressed by her mind's personality's willpower.

Oh, and just for the final nail in the coffin:

The 'Spiral of the Root,' or perhaps 'God,' appears only for an instant, then disappears. However, 'he could not say anything.' To continue standing at the extreme of passivity where nothing can be said—that is, so to speak, Mikiya's 'way.' He cannot actively grasp the divine realm. - KnK Volume 3 Commentary

Void Shiki is explicitly referred to as "God" and is equated with Akasha, and the commentary also notes that Mikiya's passivity prevents him from fully grasping the divine realm, almost as if Void Shiki represents it.

So, the commentary on the novel essentially confirms that Void Shiki is a transcendental being.

So, now that we have seen that dismissing Void's abilities has no actual solid grounding, let's move on to the more specific examples in the downgrades.

The All Around Type-Moon's bizzarre relevancy:

Implied that 30% Arcueid Brunestud's casual manifestation of the Millennium Castle is beyond her capabilities, to the point of Arcueidseeming limitless in comparison.

This scene is from All Around Type-Moon, which is a parody, no different from Carnival Phantasm. I sincerely don't know why all these people have started using it as gospel, especially when it’s set in a completely non-canon scenario where characters like Saber, Shiki, and Arcueid all randomly interact without context or continuity with the main narratives.

The main justification I've encountered for using this scene is “metafiction,” but that isn’t a quantifiable or concrete metric, nor does it override the fact that the statements in this context are made purely for comedic effect. They don’t align with the established lore, and it’s clear that these interactions are meant as light-hearted fan service rather than serious power scaling. If we were to treat metafictional awareness as literal, then by that logic, all of Type-Moon’s characters would be sub-reality level because they’re all implicitly aware they’re in a fictional work.

In fact, in serious stories, normal Ryougi Shiki in base form killed Archetype Earth:

The amount of cope around this quote is both amusing and funny.

For example, some people claim that the quote about Ryougi Shiki being destined to slay a god is somehow "ambiguous" due to the way it's worded in the original version:

"A boy who possesses the same 'Mystic Eyes of Death Perception' as herself falls by her hand, and Ryougi Shiki fulfills the act of killing her own kind in this strange, dream-like otherworldly city. And at the end of that dream, an even greater destiny awaited her—the slaying of a god."

Now, you may not see a difference, and that’s because there isn’t one, but some people try to twist this to dismiss the certainty of the event. One of the more common arguments is that Ryougi being "destined to kill a god" only refers to her intent to kill the god (Archetype Earth), not the actual act. They argue that just because it doesn’t explicitly say "she did it," it’s somehow ambiguous, almost as if the sentence is meant to mirror the game’s ending where the outcome is left unclear.

However, this interpretation doesn’t hold up when you examine the structure of the quote. First, the kin-slaying is presented as a concrete act that Shiki successfully carries out. Then, it states that the next destiny awaiting her is "the slaying of a god." The use of "awaited her" makes it clear that this is a future event, not just a possibility or intention. The phrase "an even greater fate awaited her" further solidifies that this is a set-in-stone outcome, similar to her previous kin-slaying.

Moreover, let’s not forget that Shiki was specifically sent by Void Shiki herself to slay Archetype Earth. Void’s omniscience and authority over existence itself leave little room for doubt about Shiki’s capability. Void, perceiving all of existence as her dream, inherently understands every outcome and possibility within it. By sending Shiki, she’s making a deliberate choice, confident in Shiki’s ability to carry out the task. In other words, Void wouldn’t send her if there were any real chance of failure. Given Void’s godlike awareness and absolute clarity on reality’s fabric, the decision to assign Shiki the task implies certainty that Shiki can fulfill it. When Void directs her, it’s less of an “if” and more of an “inevitability.” The certainty of this fate is also reflected in the guidebook, where Ryougi’s actions are framed as a destiny to be fulfilled.

Finally, some others demand to see on-screen evidence of Shiki actually killing the god, even though the whole point of the quote is to tell us what happens after the game's ending, where the story cuts off right before the confrontation with Archetype Earth. The purpose of the statement is to confirm that this god-slaying is inevitable and will happen in the future, not to leave it open to interpretation. It’s not ambiguous, it’s a statement of destiny, with the outcome already decided.

Others might try to dismiss this by slapping the argument that "Arcueid is not a god," as if that somehow changes the meaning. However, the guidebook is clearly referring to the end of Ryougi's story, after she kills Tohno and meets Archetype Earth in the final cutscene. If it's not referring to that moment, then what exactly is it talking about? The scene even includes a picture of them meeting, there’s no ambiguity there. While it’s true that Arcueid is not a "god" in the traditional sense (like one from human mythology or divine spirits), she is undoubtedly a god-like being. As an Archetype of the planet, she is a sentient entity capable of governing her own reality, which places her in a position of immense power. So, the claim that Arcueid is not a god is somewhat irrelevant here, because the guidebook is not discussing deities in a strict, mythological sense but rather referring to beings with immense authority and power.

Additionally, this is a direct reference to Ryougi's closing line, where she says that it doesn’t matter how old something is, anything that lives can be killed, even a god. This is not just a casual remark but a statement of intent and a clear illustration of her abilities. The statement foreshadows her act of killing Archetype Earth, showing that she can impose Death on anything, regardless of its power or status within reality.

Even setting the guidebook aside, the game itself shows Ryougi confidently claiming she can kill Archetype, with AE herself acknowledging that Ryougi has come to bring death to that which "cannot die", namely, herself. Furthermore, Ryougi was specifically sent by Void to kill AE, and Void possesses absolute knowledge, perceiving all creation as merely a dream. If Void deemed it necessary to send Ryougi, it indicates that she is indeed capable of defeating AE, a fact that the guidebook corroborates. The reason Ryougi can do this seemingly impossible action is revealed when she killed Araya's infinite dimension:

He had sufficient awareness to understand how she escaped the imprisoned space. Last night, the young lady had lost consciousness after several of her ribs were shattered by the Magus’s blow.

She had just recently awakened within the closed space, in the boundary set between the walls of the apartment complex. Within that impossible space she slashed through the impossible wall.

Infinity is not 「 」. For infinity to remain infinite, the finite has to be defined. Without the finite there cannot exist infinity. Because things have an end, we can observe the thing called infinity.

Ryougi Shiki had been cast into infinity, she saw the impossible finite and cut through it.

Of course, there is no finite inside of the infinite. You can’t slash through what doesn’t exist, so escape from such a cage is impossible. But, if there is no finite then there is no infinite. Whether finite walls exist or not, an endless world holds no meaning before Ryougi Shiki.

If there really is no finite, then it’s not infinite but 「 」. If the finite can be comprehended, Shiki could detect and slash through it.

... The black hole that should have been absolute was just a small dark room to his opponent. The Magus felt ashamed of himself. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5 Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

This passage is saying that the concept of infinity only holds meaning because it stands in contrast to finiteness. It exists as part of a duality (having an end vs. having no end) meaning it is still defined within a framework of limitations. However, true " " is not bound by such distinctions. It is the source of all existence, encompassing all possible ideas and causalities in perfect harmony. Any attempt to name or define it inherently reduces its true nature:

The swirl of the Root is a "place" where all causalities interlace, where all things are in potential, and therefore where nothing is whatsoever.— Kara no Kyoukai Epilogue

If you really wished to pronounce this term, call it “Kara.”Its meaning varied depending on each individual’s understanding. To put it in simple terms, it was the Spiral of Origin. However, since the Spiral of Origin was called the Spiral of Origin, it was no longer “ ”.To properly express this term was a source of headache during the production of the drama CDs. -Garden of sinners Pamphlet: Kara no Kyoukai Settings Glossary

The moment you try to define " ", you exclude all other possible meanings, contradicting its nature. Even calling it “perfect knowledge” would impose a specific interpretation, preventing it from being truly absolute.

This is why Ryougi Shiki can target and sever the concept of infinity itself. Since infinity is a distinct concept, one that can be observed and understood, it has a defined structure that she can perceive with her Mystic Eyes of Death Perception. By cutting through its conceptual foundation, she dissolves its meaning and returns it to " ", where all definitions cease to exist.

The same applies to Ultimate ones: their immortality, including Archetype Earth's, only holds meaning because mortality exists. Their inability to die is a distinct state, defined by its opposition to death. However, because their existence relies on this duality, dying vs. not dying, they remain bound by the conceptual framework of life and death.

But " " transcends all definitions. It does not distinguish between life and death, existence and nonexistence. This is why Archetype Earth acknowledges Ryougi as someone who can bring death to what cannot die.

Unlike Nanaya Shiki, who forces things into a state of death, Ryougi Shiki severs the very possibility of their existence. It’s not just destruction: it’s conceptual erasure. Her MEoDP doesn’t just eliminate a being, but removes the notion that it ever existed, making it impossible for any sentient being to even conceive of it again.

This is why her ability is far more terrifying than Nanaya’s: she doesn’t just end lives; she makes it so that whatever she kills is erased from thought, as if the concept itself never existed.

The only exception to her power is Araya's soul because Stillness is not a concept that exists within definitions: it is the state that dictates how definitions work in the first place. While Ryougi’s MEoDP erases things by returning them to " " , Stillness is already beyond the reach of definitions, meaning it isn’t something that can be severed in the first place.

Unlike other concepts that rely on duality (existence vs. nonexistence, life vs. death), Stillness simply is: a fundamental state that precedes distinctions. If definitions are what shape reality, Stillness is the void from which all definitions emerge, making it the foundation rather than something defined by them.

That’s why Ryougi wouldn’t be able to erase Araya’s soul in the same way she could with other beings. He doesn’t exist within the framework of "can be erased" vs. "cannot be erased", his existence is the foundation of how those distinctions manifest in the first place. In essence, Araya’s Stillness operates on the same level as " ", which is why it remains beyond even Ryougi’s conceptual erasure.

So that non-canon parody crossover event is invalidated from the outset by the fact that Base Ryougi Shiki is already superior to Archetype Earth, let alone 30% Arcueid. Even within Kara no Kyoukai, Ryougi demonstrates a stronger Origin awakening than Nanaya Shiki. Nanaya’s awakening granted him “transcendental” killing skills that allowed his body to act beyond its physical limits, elevating him to a level where he could surpass True Ancestors, including Arcueid. His feats, such as stomping Nrvnqsr Chaos (a difficult opponent even for Arcueid) while bleeding to death and speedblitzing a fully powered Akiha (who, according to extra materials, might be above Red Arcueid), establish Nanaya as a combatant far beyond Arcueid’s normal power. His combat ability stems from an Origin that embodies Death in its purest form, allowing him to instinctively eliminate anything within the domain of mortality.

However, Ryougi Shiki surpasses even Nanaya because her combat is not purely centered on Death but on the balance between Yin and Yang. Her Origin of Nothingness enables her to perceive all existence as a singular whole, where Death is not an endpoint but a means to restore equilibrium. This fundamental difference allows Ryougi’s Mystic Eyes of Death Perception to develop more completely than Nanaya’s, as she understands Death not just as destruction but as a force that governs all things. In battle, this duality translates into an ever-adapting and self-refining fighting style, where her Yin aspect perceives the inherent flaws in reality through MEoDP, while her Yang aspect instinctively executes their removal with absolute efficiency.

This is why Ryougi’s killing skills are superior to Nanaya’s. Where Nanaya refines assassination into perfection, Ryougi embodies combat in its entirety. Her nature as a “program” allows her to integrate any necessary skill to accomplish her objective, enabling her to copy and refine techniques, such as the Nanaya assassination arts, with near-perfect execution despite having no formal training. Her true strength lies in her swordsmanship, yet she can utilize improvised knife combat at an elite level simply by instinct. She achieves these feats not by merely mimicking Nanaya’s raw power but by integrating his techniques with her superior understanding of combat and the interconnectedness of existence. 

Her supremacy over Arc is further demonstrated when she dismembered Lio Shirazumi, whose Origin of Consumption elevated him beyond all beings bound to a physical form. Consumption doesn’t simply make Lio stronger: It conceptually redefines existence within his reality, ensuring his dominance over entities that rely on consuming energy or lifeforms to exist. This includes vampires and True Ancestors, whose very essence is tied to blood consumption and bound by Gaia's framework. In contrast, Lio’s power stems from his Origin, a universal truth shaping countless reincarnations.

Yet, despite Lio transcending Gaia’s limitations in physical combat and his hunting prowess, he was utterly unable to match Ryougi’s speed and precision. She bypassed his conceptual superiority entirely, carving through him as if his abstract priority as a predator over reality held no meaning.

And, of course, Ryougi goes on to defeat Nrvnqsr Chaos, Tohno Shiki and White Len (Who is equal or slightly stronger than 30% Arcueid's base physical power by her own words) with minimal effort in Melty Blood. Then, she faces and defeats Archetype Earth herself, decisively placing her above any form of Arcueid, even at her weakest and while using only a knife. This undeniable superiority invalidates any attempt to equate Shiki to characters like Arcueid, as her feats and abilities firmly establish her as operating on an entirely different level.

For more info on Ryougi's general power level, you can also consult this other thread I made.

Asagami wank:

Fujino Asagamihas thehighest capabilities out of all characters in Kara no Kyoukai, which would include Void Shiki, with this corroborated with Fujino's ability being called the "ultimate killing ability."

lol. The statement is:

Compared to Shiki who lacks a sense of existence, Fujino is someone who is similar yet different.

Pure statistics-wise, Fujino has the greatest ability in this tale. - Garden of sinners Pamphlet: Kara no Kyoukai Settings Glossary

"Pure STATISTICS-wise" which refers to physical terms. It refers to her distortion being capable of bending all physical substances regardless of their size and density, but it does not speak for abilities like MEoDP, which operates on concepts, allowing them to trancend statistics entirely. Abstract concepts and laws determine physical properties like statistics to begin with, and MEoDP targets these underlying principles. For instance, Ryougi was able to use MEoDP to kill an infinite world:

Ryougi Shiki, who could see death, was an extraordinary existence. But merely killing people was a common ability. Modern weapons created by civilization were far more lethal.

The eason Ryougi Shiki was unique among even the mages wasn't because of her ability to kill living things—it was because she could kill things that shouldn't be killable, even intangible concepts.

"That which leads to death"—that was her power.

An enclosed, infinite space with no exit was impenetrable to conventional means. Since it had no form, physical weapons could not touch it. But Ryougi Shiki's power was meant to target such intangible things.

But, Araya Souren, because you're a mage, you treated magic as absolute. Closing off a space doesn't matter. Something that abstract—she'd break through it with ease!" - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

He had sufficient awareness to understand how she escaped the imprisoned space. Last night, the young lady had lost consciousness after several of her ribs were shattered by the Magus’s blow.

She had just recently awakened within the closed space, in the boundary set between the walls of the apartment complex. Within that impossible space she slashed through the impossible wall.

Infinity is not 「 」. For infinity to remain infinite, the finite has to be defined. Without the finite there cannot exist infinity. Because things have an end, we can observe the thing called infinity.

Ryougi Shiki had been cast into infinity, she saw the impossible finite and cut through it.

Of course, there is no finite inside of the infinite. You can’t slash through what doesn’t exist, so escape from such a cage is impossible. But, if there is no finite then there is no infinite. Whether finite walls exist or not, an endless world holds no meaning before Ryougi Shiki.

If there really is no finite, then it’s not infinite but 「 」. If the finite can be comprehended, Shiki could detect and slash through it.

... The black hole that should have been absolute was just a small dark room to his opponent. The Magus felt ashamed of himself. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5 Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

What this is saying is that the concept of infinity only holds meaning because it is defined in contrast to finiteness. It exists within a framework of duality: something either has an end or it does not. However, true " " transcends all dualities. It is the foundation of all existence, containing every possible idea and causality simultaneously and without contradiction. The moment you attempt to name or define it, you impose a limitation, reducing it to something less than what it truly is.

Ryougi Shiki's ability to kill an infinite world demonstrates her capacity to erase even the most abstract and undefined concepts, showcasing her ability to kill from a distance. The infinite world, being formless, without end, and rejecting all external influence, has no defined boundaries or structure, meaning it cannot be physically targeted. Despite this, Ryougi’s Mystic Eyes of Death Perception allow her to perceive and interact with the conceptual underpinnings of existence itself. The fact that she can erase something so inherently undefined, with limitless potential, proves that her power transcends the need for tangible targets. She can sever even the most abstract ideas from existence, regardless of their lack of form or limitations.

This marks a turning point in Ryougi's evolution, showing that she can kill things from a distance, with no need for a physical point of reference, only the target's very idea. This is further demonstrated in her final fight with Araya Souren, where she effortlessly destroys two of his Bounded Fields, even though they are outside her physical range. Her ability to target and destroy concepts, even when they are not directly in her proximity, reinforces the idea that she has evolved to kill things from a distance by interacting with their conceptual nature.

Ryougi Shiki had literally shot forth like a bullet.

She drew near to the Magus to land a blow, staying in the stance she had while cutting through the distortion.

Ryougi Shiki’s katana cleaved in a straight horizontal line before taking a step forward.

The Bounded Field the Magus had relied on dispersed.

... If it were only the outer perimeter, Araya was ready to let it be killed in one blow. Even if she got close, he intended to use the moment when, Shiki was focused on killing the second layer, to decide the match.

However with just one swing, she simultaneously annihilated two Bounded Fields outside of her range. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

She even learns to kill words themselves after Chapter 6:

The magus once said,

"Even I cannot kill words."

But still, they too will die someday.

Everything will fade, disappear, and die.

Otherwise, the boundary between past and future would blur. Because things can’t be retrieved once lost, we treasure them so they won’t disappear.

...But why is something called "not eternal" just because it vanishes?

Even if something fades away or is forgotten, its existence doesn’t change. The only thing that changes is our own minds, the way we perceive it.

I should have told him.

That’s why... there’s no point in seeking eternity in oblivion.

What is meant to be forgotten will naturally be forgotten, slipping into sleep without further distortion. The act of forgetting itself is one way to define eternity.

Now I understand why the boy named SHIKI, who once existed within me, chose to forget those days.

He treasured those memories by letting them rest, so that they wouldn’t alter the heart that lives on in the present.

Even if I can’t recall them, the fact that they existed will never change.

...That magus must have known this, yet he couldn’t accept it as an answer. Lacking a true self, he clung to words that wouldn’t die, craving eternity in something certain.

─── How unfulfilling.

An eternity that can be put into words is worthless. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 6

So, should Ryougi face Asagami again? Would be very bad news for the latter, despite her clairvoyance.

Shiki's evolved eyes allows her to dismantle the conceptual foundations of Asagami's abilities, making her an effective counter against those powers. Asagami's ability to see from above, facilitated by her clairvoyance, operates on the concept of "seeing," which inherently includes a point of view. Shiki could perceive this point of view as a conceptual "starting point" or "catalyst" for the clairvoyance ability. By cutting this conceptual point, Shiki could effectively nullify Asagami's ability to see.

For Asagami's ability to twist space, it indeed requires a target to focus on or exert her powers upon. This targeting mechanism can be understood as another "starting point" that allows her to manipulate space. Shiki could identify this mechanism and sever it, effectively neutralizing Asagami's ability to bend or manipulate space. The abilities that Asagami possesses, like clairvoyance and spatial distortion, have defined identities and functions because they are rooted in specific concepts. These concepts create "points" or "boundaries" that give structure and meaning to the abilities. If these abilities lacked such conceptual definitions, they would effectively be indistinct and thus "nothing."

And even back when they fought, Ryougi wasn't going all-out, but simply enjoying the fight and wasn't fully intent on killing Asagami:

Fujino says so aloud, unable to contain the fear in that question. She cannot forget that moment. Those eyes of Shiki, who still came at her after having her arm broken. Shiki was having fun. That person is enjoying this situation where even I, the one with the advantage, am overwhelmed with tension. Maybe... for Ryougi Shiki, having her arm broken is not pain, but happiness. Fujino has not enjoyed murder so far. She does not want to kill. But that person is different. That person must like murder. The more extreme the situation is, the happier she becomes. Fujino thinks... if Ryougi Shiki is a person that lacks any sense of feeling towards life itself, what will she do to substitute for that? For Fujino, it was murder. When she sees other humans die, she gets this indescribable feeling... Since Fujino found out what pain feels like, she is able to sympathize with others in pain. The reality that she is the one in control of others makes her feel that she really does exist. A "ruthless murder" is Fujino's substitute. She does not know it herself, but Fujino takes pleasure in murder. Then what is Ryougi Shiki's substitute......?

Shiki concentrates. Asagami Fujino is a strong enemy that might be the best she'll ever meet. One mistake could cost her her life. That is pleasant, that makes Shiki feel that she is alive. For Shiki, normally bound by her past, only this moment is real. This sensation that she is able to feel only when putting her life in danger. That small life of hers that she can declare as her own. Kill or be killed. Since even her normal life is vague, Shiki can feel life only by such primal methods as this. If Asagami Fujino seeks pleasure in murder... Ryougi Shiki seeks the sensation of life by relating with murder. Fujino fears this situation.... and Shiki wishes for this situation. That is the difference between the hunter and the hunted. The difference between the two is definite now. Shiki murmurs. She knew from the time she saw her at the cafe. She knows that the inside of Asagami Fujino is on the verge of breaking down. It's meaningless to finish off Fujino right now. But, that's life. Shiki thinks some things should come out of meaningless actions. She remembers Touko saying that humans are creatures that do meaningless things. Shiki feels the same way now. Exactly like this bridge. People decry one uselessness as stupidity while praising another uselessness as art. Where does the boundary lie? Boundaries are uncertain. It is the person that establishes them, but it's always external influences that determine them. Then there is no such thing as a boundary to begin with. The world is full of empty boundaries. That is why there are no walls in society to separate the abnormal from the normal. ... The ones to make the wall are us. Like me wanting to get away from the world. Like the way Mikiya thinks I'm not abnormal. ... Like the way Asagami Fujino is running away to death... In that sense, Shiki and Fujino are alike. They are similar. In this small space, two of the same kind are not needed. "Let's go. I can see the trick to your magic show now." After shaking her head clear of the effect of the blood loss, Shiki gets up. She grips her knife tightly in her right hand. If Fujino does not lay her own boundary... then she will just have to eliminate her. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 3

"She returned to pain insensitivity at the very end. That's cheating. Asagami Fujino in that state can't be my target. I couldn't do anything else so I just killed the disease in her stomach. She might make it if you hurry." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 3

The passages highlight that Shiki perceives Fujino as a "strong enemy," but she’s not necessarily driven to kill her with the same intensity she would for an extreme, inhuman threat. Shiki even reflects that Fujino is “on the verge of breaking down,” and this awareness impacts how seriously she treats her as an opponent. Shiki's decision to spare Fujino after recognizing her instability shows restraint, and it suggests that she’s consciously choosing not to escalate to her maximum potential. If she considered Fujino a fully realized threat, she likely would have gone all out. Fujino notices Shiki’s enjoyment in the fight, observing that Shiki is “having fun” and even “enjoying this situation” despite the pain of her broken arm. This mindset of savoring the fight rather than seeing it as a do-or-die situation implies that Shiki isn’t pushing herself to her limits. Her excitement comes not from seeing Asagami as an existential threat, but rather from the thrill of engaging with an opponent who poses a challenge. Shiki’s enjoyment, combined with her choice to “just kill the disease” instead of going for Asagami’s life, suggests that Shiki maintains a degree of control and holds back from her full power.

Unlike her fights with Araya and God’s Word, where she confronts entities with inhuman powers and an absolute intent to destroy, Shiki sees Fujino more as a broken individual than a pure threat. Against figures like Araya or God’s Word, she’s forced to bring out her full skill set and killer intent, but here, Shiki maintains control and avoids crossing boundaries that she would otherwise dismantle in a true life-or-death scenario.

Furthermore, notice how Shiki is reflecting about he nature of boundaries in the second quote. She recognizes that Fujino is struggling between her destructive instincts and the possibility of finding meaning beyond them, and thinks Fujino still has a chance to find her own purpose or "boundary" in life. If Asagami can’t do that and gives in to her instincts, Shiki feels she’ll have no choice but to kill her.

As long as there’s even a small chance for Fujino to overcome her breakdown and establish that boundary, Shiki won't go all-out or aim to kill her outright.

But if Asagami completely succumbs to her urges and loses any hope of recovery or self-definition, Shiki sees it as her responsibility to end things. It’s a mix of respect, observation, and her own detached philosophy about life and death.

TLDR: Asagami Fujino fluctuates between the "abnormal" and "normal" sides, much like Ryougi Shiki does. She isn't fully immersed in abnormality like figures such as God's Word, Lio, or Araya, which gives Shiki the sense that there’s still a chance for Asagami to snap out of her current state and return to a more "normal" existence. Shiki understands that Asagami is already dying due to her sickness, which makes killing her seem unnecessary and meaningless, especially since the sickness is a key factor in her abnormal behavior. By extending the fight, Shiki savors the experience because it gives her a sense of life. She enjoys the challenge of facing someone who shares her nature, yet isn't fully lost to the abnormal. The act of killing Asagami’s sickness at the end underscores the idea that it was the sickness, not just Asagami herself, that pushed her toward the abnormal. The sickness forced her to project her pain and seek dominance in a way that reflects her brokenness. Thus, rather than killing Asagami herself, Shiki ultimately deals with the underlying cause of her suffering, which is more meaningful for her. This decision fits with Shiki’s overall philosophy of recognizing the causes of a person’s suffering, understanding the value of life, and only eliminating what is truly necessary.

And even while deliberately holding back due to the possibility of Asagami snapping out of her madness and re-establishing her boundary, Ryougi was still significantly faster. She could avoid Asagami’s distortions simply by escaping her line of sight. The reason she still needed the parking lot is because there is a distinction between moving faster than someone can track and bypassing their perception of space entirely. While Shiki was initially too fast for Asagami to follow, Asagami could still reorient herself and attempt to land a Distortion attack if she managed to look at Shiki again. To counter this, Shiki deliberately moved the fight into a parking lot, where she could use cover to disrupt Asagami’s ability to see her.

And EVEN then, this only occurred because Shiki was still adjusting to her Mystic Eyes of Death Perception during this chapter. She explicitly states:

I suddenly recall the girl that was with Azaka....... That aura of death creeping out of her like capillaries. Since I am not used to my eyes yet,I saw it without any prior preparation.... That was abnormal. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 3

Once she adapted to her Mystic Eyes and was able to apply them directly to Asagami’s distortions, she completely overwhelmed her, despite her arm being rendered non-functional and her body on the verge of unconsciousness due to blood loss. This demonstrates that Asagami’s abilities became completely irrelevant once Ryougi fully acclimated to her Mystic Eyes' versatility. And as the story progresses, her mastery over them evolves even further. Asagami is not doing anything to Base Ryougi at her best and after her MEoDP evolved to see all forms of death, including the abstract, nevermind Self-Hypnosis Ryougi, let alone Void.

As for Distortion being the "best killing ability", that's just either a hyperbole contradicted by every info in the story, or it's in reference to Shiki's less evolved MEoDP at the time of Chapter 3, which struggled to see immaterial things and required physical contact still. Void in fact confirmed that MEoDP at its highest level can look at the floor-plan of reality and kill all things without exceptions:

If nihil is her origin, then most likely she wills to bring all things to nought. Shiki is able to kill anything without exception, for that reason alone. The personality, Shiki, strives to negate. Why? Because that is the original pattern of her soul. The inclination to nihil, which ardently wishes the death of all creation.

—That is Shiki's capability. Much like Asagami Fujino, she perceives a unique channel in which things unseen by others become visible. When she "looks" at them, she is seeing a glimpse of the architect's floor-plan for all reality. That is the "swirl of the Root." - Kara no Kyoukai Epilogue

While again, Distortion is limited to physical things that can be "bent". It cannot interact with immaterial and formless concepts like MEoDP can, or Araya Souren's bounded fields, or God's Word's unified language, etc.

In conclusion, Shiki only struggled against Asagami because she was still unfamiliar with the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception and had yet to fully embrace her Origin’s impulse to correct or erase imperfections. Rather than fighting with the absolute intent to kill, she deliberately extended the battle, using it as a way to affirm her own existence and savor the sensation of being alive. At the same time, she was testing Asagami, holding back to see if she had any capacity to resist her own impulses, only committing to killing her once it became clear that she was beyond saving.

Even with these self-imposed limitations, Ryougi still moved too fast for Asagami to track with her eyes, forcing her to rely on spatial awareness to land her sight-based ability after multiple failed attempts. Once Shiki adapted to MEoDP and learned to sever Asagami’s Distortion, the fight was effectively over. Despite being barely conscious and having lost the use of an arm, she rendered Asagami irrelevant, proving that the latter was never a true threat to her. If Shiki had been in full alignment with her Origin and driven purely by the intent to kill, her combat ability would have skyrocketed, making Asagami’s defeat even more decisive.

While Asagami later gained clairvoyance, it would be meaningless against Ryougi, who eventually learned to kill concepts, words, and existential boundaries defining entire universes. At that level, she could simply erase Asagami’s abilities at their very foundation, leaving her as a sitting duck.

Self-Hypnosis Misconception:

This personality comes out everytime Ryougi uses self suggestion, however the only abilities she gained are increased physical stats and precognition..

This is incorrect. Here is a brief explanation about how SH works:

-Self-hypnosis, which is mainly used by mages, is using hypnotic suggestions aimed towards one's self to bring out their inner capabilities. The stronger/better/more refined the hypnosis is, the more adequately it'll bring out one's inner capabilities:

-- Spells. Within the realm of mages, they were nothing more than suggestions aimed at oneself.

There is a magecraft for causing wind to blow. Just like a certain type of weapon, this was a power which had an ability that was determined from the start. No matter what mage used it, its effect would not change. Only the incantation was different.

The incantations called spells were for the purpose of activating the magecraft that one's body had become familiar with. Its contents showed the nature of the mage. That was because as long as you kept the necessary meanings and keywords for the activation of that particular piece of magecraft, the details of the incantation could be changed to suit the user's fancy.

The incantations of a narcissistic and pompous mage who easily got infatuated with themself was long. But it was also true that the more meaning you put into the spell, the more powerful the final effect. This was because the stronger the suggestion you put upon yourself, the stronger the ability you pulled out from yourself would be. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

Shiki, despite not being a mage that uses magecraft, uses self-hypnosis on herself when using her real fighting style with a sword, with it clearly being the highest form of self-hypnosis, completely remaking one's mind and body solely for combat:

A long, long, time ago. Samurai had been said to accept killing and be killed naturally the moment their swords were drawn. This wasn't because of an emotional state as a warrior. The instant they gripped the handle, they would awaken. Their bodies transform into ones existing only for killing, their brains turn into ones moving only for survival. This wasn't beyond the level of bracing oneself before a match. By drawing their katana, the functions of their brain switched. They were not switching their body to one suited for battle. Their brain was remaking their bodies into one fit for combat. By doing so, the muscles work in a way that should not be used by living beings, and the veins change the circulation route of the blood, prevent them from even breathing. ... Yes, human functions useless in battle are completely ejected as they are transformed into a part meant for war. "That stance. So you transformed yourself by autosuggestion. I'm surprised." The woman in the kimono answered, yes, to the muttering of the pained magus. The true identity of the fear that ran down Araya the moment Shiki opened her eyes was this. The magus cursed his ignorance. To think that there was a clan that this skill had been passed down to the current age. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

In fact, her fighting style in hand-to-hand and knife combat isn't what she was trained in, with her merely picking up techniques she's seen and started using them on the fly:

"I suppose I have something along those lines. I train by taking down everything using that as my premise, so if you call it a finishing move, it is one. But we aren't of that school. And it's originally a self-created style as well." The thing you train is your mindset, Ryougi adds. "You remake your body. From your breathing to the placement of your feet, awareness, thoughts, to be able to remake all of them for combat. Even the way of using your muscles changes, so it might feel like you become a different person. I suppose tensing your body and mind as a fight starts, and while you are fighting, is the foundation of all martial arts. However, we followed only that too much, and as a result our path went too far.

"What, if you are strong then that's that. There won't be any instances where you go around getting bashed up like me. And you finished off those three guys in an instant. That's an incredible self-created style right there. "When I spoke, remembering that refreshing instant of when I met this girl, Ryougi seems a bit surprised. "That's different. I only copied what I had seen. More than that, there's never been an instance where I've used our house's school of fighting. "She nonchalantly spat out that frightening statement, then Ryougi collapsed onto the bed and fell asleep. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

In fact, the fighting style with her knife and hand-to-hand she copied just from looking at it are the Nanaya Arts:

A listless girl who who wears both Eastern and Western clothes by wearing a leather jacket on top of her kimono. A character that seems have to have taken only the best parts of two characters: Tohno Shiki's Mystic Eyes of Death Perception and Nanaya Shiki's Nanaya Techniques. Every movement is high-spec, with no opening in either her offense or defense. - Character Introduction from Tsukihime's fourth Character Popularity Poll

So her true fighting style that she's seriously trained in is far above herself with her knife or hands using fighting styles she's randomly copied on the fly.

But what makes her self-hypnosis so insane is the fact that it brings out one's inner capabilities. The thing is, Ryougi's inner self is the ultimate avatar/representation of The One, with her only real limitation as Void being again, that she isn't The One itself, just maximally powered by it.

Due to this, combined with the fact her self-hypnosis is the highest possible, since it remakes her entire mind and body for solely combat, she has essentially reached the peak levels of swordsmanship possible. Her inner self being the ultimate representation of The One means that perfect self-hypnosis used on her for combat would bring out the highest possible perfected level of skill and speed for swordmanship possible, embodying the perfection of The One.

This goes beyond the mere physical as well. Representing the perfection of The One extends to the abstract, with her level of speed bypassing the boundaries of space-time and her skill allowing her to gain traits that can affect metaphysical entities even without her Mystic Eyes of Death Perception, along with having future sight:

For Shiki, the knife is just a substitute. The weapon she is most accustomed to using is a katana. When Shiki wields a katana, she can contend with supernatural entities even without using her Mystic Eyes, and she can even achieve a level of future sight similar to that of Akira Seo. - Character Introduction from Tsukihime's fourth Character Popularity Poll

We see this future sight in action too, as Ryougi knew where Araya was going to teleport before he did and leaped from the building all the way to the ground where he was going to teleport before he even did:

- The magus, with his black coat, was disappearing. Shiki didn't think of stopping him. What theories was the magus using to escape and how could she stop him? Shiki didn't bother to think of little things like that. If he wanted to run away, he's free to do as he wants. Shiki placed her hand on the railing in the hall.

"....But, I won't let you get away." She then jumped outside. The magus suddenly appeared at the garden, and without wasting time after his spatial shift, struck out his remaining arm. He looked up at the night sky and opened the palm of his hand so as to crush the circular tower. But at that instant, his body was slashed from the shoulder down. At that instant, his body was slashed from the shoulder down."Ryougi.....Shiki. "The magus, looking up at the sky, murmured.

"You....."

"....Impossible."

Unbelievable, he had said. It was natural for him to. Because, when the magus appeared at the garden and looked up at the sky, what was there was Ryougi Shiki, falling down from the tenth floor. The woman he was fighting - at the instant the magus had connected space from the mansion to the garden and moved - had jumped without hesitation from the hallway of the 10th floor. The magus' form still remained on the 10th floor, but she had jumped off to get to Araya Souren at the garden when he hadn't yet existed there. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

The reason she can damage non-physical entities in this state like her MEoDP is because, since she is connected to Nothingness/The One, she can tap into the truth that all things are interconnected and ultimately sourced from Akasha. Since swords are seen as symbols of "truth" that "cut away at false distinctions", SH Shiki can bypass the "false" distinction of the non-corporeal entity and directly reveal the truth about its existence.

Regarding her speed, instead, it also possesses metaphysical properties, specifically the ability to outright ignore physical space and turn significant distances to zero:

Araya knew well that to the swordsmen in the past of the old schools, a distance of 3 ken (5 meters) was the equivalent of zero. Probably, the Shiki of earlier could even cover a space of 5 ken/nine meters with one step. No one had known her true form. He had assumed that Ryougi Shiki's fighting style was by her mystic eyes and knife. But the truth was this. This woman is meant to be a killer using a katana. Compared to how she is now, her normal self cannot even match up to her. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

As stated here, SH Ryougi can cover a space of nine meters with only one step, which is physically impossible under normal circumstances. The reason she can do this is because her skill is outright bending space and reality to ensure that her strikes hit and that any unnecessary motion or effort is ignored. She brings the concept of expert martial artists being able to collapse the distance between point A and point B to its highest extent:

Ryougi Shiki with only one step covered a space of four meters. Her body flowed. The one step she walked was at the same time a step to repeat her deadly slashes. It almost even seemed as if with her unbelievably fast body, time wasn't so much as being stopped but rewound. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

As seen here, rather than moving, she is more like "flowing" or shifting through reality, even giving the impression that time is being rewound. It also states that her one step she walked also served to repeat her slashes, showing that SH Shiki can also chain multiple actions into one perfect, fluid motion with no delay at all. While most fighters need to think, move, and then strike (Each action being distinct) Ryougi can perform them simultaneously, with no pause.

-"Even fidget spinners can give the impression time is being rewound" - Redditors unironically

My dude, you can literally apply this argument to anything in fiction. This is so dumb it's not even worth addressing. Battleboarders are getting more and more deranged and openly irrational these days. It's the main reason I have decided to not bother much outside of making threads like these.

So, to recap, Shiki in this state draws out her greatest capabilities as an avatar of The One, but only in regards to a certain specialty/aspect, that being swordsmanship, with her skill in it being to the utmost perfection possible to the point it goes beyond the physical and allows her to even affect the metaphysical without her other abilities like her Mystic Eyes of Death Perception. Of course, she can still use MEoDP in this state, making her even deadlier as SH synchronizes her movements to trace the Lines and Points of Death with perfect precision. Finally, self-hypnosis also enables Shiki to use her connection to The One to make all of existence/reality an extension of her killing intent. This allows her strikes and movements to warp space and time, giving them an almost predetermined nature, mirroring the inevitability of Death itself.

This is why Araya saw a glimpse of Void. But she is still not the real thing, but rather her swordmanship skills channeled by normal Ryougi with SH. Funnily enough, this is actually an extraordinariy feat for Void: Her perfection applied to only a single specific ability (Swordmanship) grants the ability to fight unconstrained by physical and temporal boundaries, akin to how an omnipotent being sees time and distance as zero to the mind and will. So obviously, this is further proof that Void has a non-dual perspective and complete control over reality, with her perfection extending to manipulating all things, instead of just swordmanship.

For more info on Self-Hypnosis Ryougi, you can consult this other thread I made.

Cringe Grand Order stuff:

Firstly, this is lacking context. As Void and Ryougi in Grand Order are in a Servant container:

Which we know limits power massively. It did the same to Remake Archetype Earth:

Void herself even specifically said that she chose an imperfect form actually:

This isn't even rocket science. We can infer that Saber Void is not an accurate representation of the real Void's capabilites by merely looking at her default stats:

Saber Void has C ranked Agility, as opposed to Assassin Shiki having an A+. It doesn't make sense that she randomly has a much lower Agility rank than her weaker personality not even operating at full capacity. Another obvious give away of the fact that her Servant container restricts her is her MEoDP having a lower rank than her normal counterpart:

Mystic Eyes of Death Perception: C

The rank is lower compared to her Assassin counterpart, since she doesn't need them originally. - Fate/Grand Order material III- Shiki Ryougi (Saber), p.164-171

The only justification provided is "she doesn't need them normally". Even though she has an even deeper understanding and comprehension of Death's mechanics than normal Ryougi does. So clearly, her Servant container can nerf her even below her weaker personality based off of arbitrary parameters. 

Some argue that Void Shiki’s profile, which states her "connection to the Root makes her an all-powerful wish-granting device" and renders regular parameters meaningless, contradicts the idea that her Servant container nerfs her. However, this interpretation is flawed. Void Shiki can still maintain a connection to the Root, but it would be severely limited by the constraints of her Servant vessel, similar to how Archetype Earth retains her authority over the planet but in a diminished form rather than losing it entirely.

The claim that her abilities make "regular parameters meaningless" likely refers to her capacity for genuine reality warping, rendering conventional combat ineffective against Saber Void. However, the scope/versatility of her reality warping remains significantly restricted compared to her true self. This explains why she would supposedly lose against beings like Primate Murder, who operates in a reality-warping tier vaguely comparable to Altrouge, Crimson Moon, and Gaia. That said, any assessment of reality warping in Fate/Grand Order is dubious at best, given its inconsistency and the various retcons regarding the Root.

The reasoning provided by the profile here:

with it being illogical to assume she was limited in scope, as Pseudo-Servants use the body of the host as a container. Void Shiki, being the body of Ryougi Shiki herself, has no reason to be limited.

Feels like a lot of words to say nothing in the end. A Pseudo-Servant is defined by the combination of a powerful spirit or deity occupying an existing human vessel. This setup inherently involves limitations based on the host’s body and the rules governing Servants. Even if Void is using Shiki’s original body, the summoning system would still impose the constraints typical of a Servant, as evident in her parameters, and other inferior beings like Archetype being nerfed as well.

All of this makes it extremely clear that Servant Void is nothing like the true unrestricted Void.

There is also the fact that Grand Order in general is incredibly inconsistent and all over the place. But we'll ignore that this time.

Some other Grand Order supporters instead compares her to Manaka for reasons that nobody has been able to coherently explain yet.

As it stands though, that is merely a false equivalence. There are varying degrees of connection to Akasha, and simply having one does not make a character comparable to Void Shiki. Even mages connect to Akasha through their Magic Circuits to perform Magecraft, but this connection is weak and heavily limited. True Magic, on the other hand, represents a direct and unrestricted link to fundamental aspects of Akasha.

Manaka Sajyou’s connection is explicitly limited by her Magic Circuits, as Fate/Prototype states:

Manaka: “The event that has been completely fixed in the flow of time……...cannot be surpassed. Even if I could make it possible for Britain to survive with my own hands, if I come into conflict with the fixed event then I will quickly disappear. Somehow the glorious Britain will be destroyed, the Saxons will establish a new country, and finally give birth to the Britain that will continue onto now.”

Caster: “So you’re pruning the event, I see?”

Manaka: “Yes. And then, the world will continue on to now.” - Fate/Prototype: Fragment of Blue and Silver - Volume 5 Knights of Fate - Act 4

This proves that Manaka’s limitations stem from her insufficient Magic Circuits, meaning that without this constraint, she might have been able to reshape the world permanently. However, Void Shiki does not have such limitations, because she does not even possess Magic Circuits to begin with.

Manaka’s reliance on her circuits suggests her Akashic powers function more like Magecraft rather than True Magic or ESP-based abilities with a direct superordinate connection to Akasha, like Zelretch, Aoko, Ryougi, or even Tohno Shiki. These individuals do not require Magic Circuits to channel Akashic power, they open direct pathways to its aspects beyond material creation. Manaka, by contrast, likely only connects to a subordinate version of an Akashic aspect, further filtered through her Magic Circuits, much like the Holy Grail. And just like the Grail, which could not even grant supernatural miracles and was limited to fulfilling wishes through existing methods, her supposed omnipotence is vastly exaggerated.

Comparing her to Void Shiki, who could erase Creation just by thinking too hard and is existentially one with Akasha, is absurd. Even Aoko or Araya Souren (if he had succeeded in merging with Void) could overpower Alaya and Gaia, yet Manaka cannot. More damningly, Tohno Shiki, with an inferior iteration of Mystic Eyes compared to normal Ryougi, effortlessly killed Maiko Yamase, a being connected to True Chaos and a world unto itself.

Additionally, there is zero evidence that Manaka has undergone an Origin Awakening or that her Origin is “Nothingness” like Void Shiki’s. In fact, it explicitly isn’t.

An Origin dictates one’s personality, and Void Shiki’s Origin is literally The One, meaning she embodies what The One would be like if it self-generated an omnipotent mind. If The One ever truly self-actualized, it would simply be Void Shiki, but fully omnipotent. Her status is unique, there can be no other like her. The only way to reach her level is to merge with her and replace Ryougi as the mind of her body, as Araya Souren intended.

Manaka is no different from the Holy Grail, another flawed wish-granter with an exaggerated connection to Akasha. The fact that the World can reverse her alterations, whereas normal Ryougi (merely drawing from a single aspect of Void) could kill Archetype Earth, the embodiment of Gaia, proves she is nowhere near Void Shiki’s level. At best, she is a failed imitation of an omnipotent wish-granter, just like the Grail.

The funniest part? On top of these arguments failing in-universe, they are all utterly irrelevant in the first place:

-The Ryougi Shiki featured in Grand Order is a rewritten version of the character, designed to fit the continuity of the Tsukihime Remake, which is canon to Grand Order. The Remake's lore is in direct contradiction to the original Tsukihime. It was intentionally altered because the original could not be reconciled with the new direction. Tsuki RE is effectively an entirely separate story from the original, with its own distinct lore crafted specifically to align with Grand Order, and this version cannot coexist with the original. Since Kara no Kyoukai is set in the same world as the original Tsukihime, it similarly cannot coexist with the Remake or Grand Order. Therefore, the version of Void seen in Grand Order comes from an altered version of KnK, rewritten to fit the Tsuki RE canon, which has no relevance to the original depiction of Void or Kara no Kyoukai.

"How is she different?" You may ask? Well, besides being set in the Tsukihime Remake universe, while Kara no Kyoukai is rooted in the original Tsukihime continuity, marking them as separate canons, Fate/Grand Order's portrayal of Void Shiki strips her of her depth, reducing her to a simplistic, waifu-like character. In this version, she expresses incoherent statements such as claiming human emotions don't apply to her, only to contradict herself by feeling emotions she wonders could be love. She even wishes the player a happy birthday and expresses admiration for humans, traits that are utterly out of place for the character.

That interpretation of Void Shiki is a complete contradiction to her core character as presented in Kara no Kyoukai. In the original series, Void Shiki doesn’t just lack human emotions, she transcends them. She is an embodiment of pure, abstract existence, a manifestation of the Void itself, and she functions on a plane that renders concepts like “birthday wishes” or “love” utterly irrelevant to her existence. Void Shiki exists on a level that’s fundamentally incompatible with the idea of "humanity" and its interests, which is why this F/GO portrayal is so jarring.

In Kara no Kyoukai, Void Shiki is not curious about humanity or amused by personal relationships and human flaws. She is indifferent to them. Void Shiki, as an aspect of the “One” and an embodiment of Nothingness, is defined by her ultimate neutrality and distance from anything relatable to human sentiment. Her role is to observe the flow of existence without attachment, and her perspective is closer to Death itself, viewing life, emotions, and human logic as inconsequential.

The idea of Void wishing you a happy birthday, expressing admiration for humans, feeling “pleasant” emotions, or enjoying being ordered around is entirely opposed to her nature. These characterizations dilute her essence, turning her from an entity that embodies the vast, impersonal Void into something trivial and humanized. Even phrases like “my goodness” or any kind of personality critique toward her other self make no sense given her detachment and impersonal wisdom.

In short, F/GO’s Void Shiki is a distorted reimagining, almost an entirely different character who bears only Void Shiki’s name. The profound, philosophical resonance of her original character has been stripped away, and she’s reduced to a more conventional, trope-driven role that disregards her existential role in KnK.

Even her girlish attitude and blushes are completely at odds with the cold and distant nature of her original character:

She looked at him. Her eyes far older than she seemed. - Kara no Kyoukai Epilogue

She stared out at the drifting oceanic sky. In her eyes, a surreptitious grief. A whisper addressed to no-one, not more than a breath, passed her lips.

—To live ordinarily, and die an ordinary death.

Ah. That, indeed.

—How lonely...

She looked deeply into a dark with neither end nor beginning. Thus Ryougi Shiki made her farewell. - Kara no Kyoukai Epilogue

Regarding normal Shiki instead, she is literally unconcerned that Mikiya is killed by Goetia and she even goes as far as to say that Ritsuka is "Like him", even though Ritsuka is someone who believes that individual happiness can be sacrificed for the greater progress and evolution of humanity.

That’s a glaring mischaracterization of Ryougi Shiki. Her entire character arc in Kara no Kyoukai is built around her complex, evolving relationship with Mikiya, who represents the one constant, unshakeable presence in her life. Mikiya is the antithesis of the idea that individual happiness should be sacrificed for humanity’s progress, he embodies acceptance, compassion, and a deep-seated belief in the value of individual happiness. Mikiya has always seen Shiki as she truly is and accepted her unconditionally, which is why she respects and cherishes him so uniquely.

Ryougi Shiki’s detachment from humanity is tempered by her attachment to Mikiya. He isn’t just someone she “cares” for in a conventional sense; he’s the only person who bridges her with a world she often finds meaningless. To imply that she would simply be "fine" with his death negates the powerful impact he has on her journey. This interpretation in F/GO completely disregards her personal growth and her struggle to accept human connection, a theme that is central to her arc.

The idea that she would compare Mikiya to someone who believes in sacrificing individual happiness for some "greater good" is absurdly out of character. Mikiya’s entire philosophy is the opposite of that utilitarian approach; he respects individuals as they are, without imposing ideals of "progress" or "greater purpose." If anything, Shiki herself is someone who rejects those larger societal ideals, finding meaning in the direct, unfiltered interactions she has with Mikiya and a select few others.

When Shiki thought Mikiya had been killed by Lio, she was devastated to the point of complete physical and emotional collapse. That scene speaks volumes about her true feelings for him, which are so deep and instinctual that losing him breaks her down entirely. Shiki, despite her outward indifference toward most things, has an irreplaceable bond with Mikiya that grounds her in reality, he’s essentially her anchor to the world and to a sense of self beyond her detached nature. Her reaction in that scene illustrates her inability to function without him, emphasizing how central he is to her life.

Additionally, her behavior at home, described as doll-like when Mikiya isn’t there, further reflects this dependency:

She's always asleep on the bed like a corpse. This girl doesn't wake up in the morning; instead she is resurrected from death to life when she has something to do.

At first I thought it was to go to school, but I don't think that's the reason. Because whenever she receives a phone call from somewhere, Ryougi regains her vitality.

It goes without saying that I sense that the subject matter of those calls is suspicious.

However, Ryougi is waiting for that. In its absence, this girl remains here like some doll.- Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

She isn’t a doll in the traditional sense but is rather waiting, she becomes dormant, unengaged, until he’s around, showing that he’s the one who brings her to life, literally and metaphorically. Shiki herself said that living without Mikiya is unthinkable for her by the time of Chapter 7:

With a final breath, her eyes fluttered shut.

Regret was a distant echo. A silent thought resonated: without Mikiya, life held no purpose. Just like how a beast, once warmed by fire, could never return to the cold, she could never go back to the empty self she once was. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 7

This isn’t the behavior of someone indifferent to an individual’s importance or sacrifice; it’s the opposite. Shiki’s life essentially pauses in Mikiya’s absence, revealing that her feelings for him are so powerful they’ve integrated into her very being. This ties into the title of "Boundary of Emptiness", where Shiki's emptiness gains meaning only through the serene acceptance and grounding presence of Mikiya, mirroring how the One can only birth a definable creation through the boundaries imposed by Stillness on a cosmic scale.

This makes it even more nonsensical for F/GO’s version to treat Mikiya’s death so lightly. Shiki isn’t just “attached” to Mikiya in the way that a typical person is to a friend or partner. For her, he is a presence that gives meaning to her existence and allows her to stay tethered to humanity in a world she could easily dismiss as empty or meaningless. Any characterization that disregards this connection or minimizes its depth misses the very core of her character. It’s unfortunate that F/GO portrays Shiki as apathetic or unaffected by Mikiya’s absence or death when, in Kara no Kyoukai, he’s practically her reason for remaining in the world at all.

There is also the issue that her powers are entirely changed too. In F/GO, the One is depicted as a physical dimension accessible through a dream, where one can converse with others:

We know this is the One because Void Shiki herself describes it as a place "with no boundaries," where things with names should not exist. Yet, paradoxically, within this realm, there are definable elements, Void herself, a structured space, and even a visible background. This directly contradicts the original Kara no Kyoukai, which repeatedly emphasized that the One and its associated concepts are inherently abstract, boundless, and beyond any tangible dimension. The One is not a "place" that can be visited or visualized; it is a formless void where individuality and structure dissolve entirely.

In KnK, the One represents pure potential: a realm without boundaries where no concept can be defined or contained. However, modern interpretations trivialize this by turning it into a tangible, explorable location. This fundamentally undermines the profound metaphysical weight the One once carried, reducing it to something that characters can physically access, like any other dimension.

This also means that, in modern Type-Moon, the Root is depicted as a physical place that serves as the foundation for creation. But if the entire modern TM setting is contingent upon a higher physical reality, then it's no different from a video game world relying on the hardware and code of a greater reality. Essentially, this creates a Reality > Fiction (R>F) hierarchy, where modern TM is just a construct of a higher physical existence. 

Some might argue that the Root's depiction is simply a dream, but that explanation collapses under scrutiny. Claiming one can dream of being in a "location" where purely abstract, sizeless concepts like logic itself exist makes no sense. You can't dream of the boundless source; you can only conceptualize it and draw from its power. The fact that there is a sky, flower petals, and other tangible imagery proves that it is a physical place, contradicting the very essence of what the One is supposed to be.

No amount of copy-pasting old lore descriptions can erase the blatant anti-feats staring us in the face. A story can call someone omnipotent all it wants, but if they lost, then they aren't omnipotent, no matter how much the text insists otherwise. The same logic applies here: the modern Root is clearly just another physical dimension, one that even nobodies like Ritsuka can enter, which completely invalidates its original, boundless nature.

The dream excuse also falls apart when you consider that dreams are supposed to be subconscious reconstructions of known reality. You can’t "dream of" something that lacks all form and existence because the brain has no reference point for it. Yet Modern TM presents it as a place with physical attributes, meaning it’s no longer an abstract root of all existence but simply a higher plane of existence.

There's also the fact this dream is real in some capacity, as he meets the actual Void Shiki there. Void Shiki outright stating that “having a name” means you shouldn’t be there proves that definition and identity contradict the nature of The Root. Yet, not only is she standing there in her physical body, but she’s literally talking to someone with a name.

This is Modern TM trying to have it both ways: Keeping the “boundless omnipotent source” descriptor while simultaneously making it a tangible location people can visit. But, even within their own writing, Void Shiki is calling attention to how absurd this is. The fact that they didn’t realize this contradiction when writing the scene is hilarious.

There was no light here. No, I suspect I had never fallen in the first place. Since there was nothing here. It wasn’t just that there was no light, there wasn’t even any darkness. Since there was nothing here, nothing was visible. There was no meaning to the concept of falling. Inside the 「　」 within which even form was meaningless, just my body kept sinking. The naked me; I’m a poisonous shade which made me want to turn my eyes away. Because everything 「here」 bore such a poisonous aura. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 4

The fact that Ryougi explicitly denies even the concept of falling shows that her experience within 「 」 transcended all forms of structure, physical, conceptual, or otherwise. There were no forces acting on her, no up or down, no contrast between light and darkness. It was absolute negation, a space beyond existence where even the idea of movement had no meaning.

Compare that to Modern Type-Moon’s Root, where people can enter, implying physicality, direction, and a defined somewhere that can be reached. That alone contradicts the idea that it’s truly boundless. A place that can be “entered” inherently acknowledges form, structure, and some form of metaphysical framework, which is antithetical to how The One was originally presented.

This fundamentally changes the nature of The Root. It’s no longer an omnipotent, unbounded source of all things, it’s just another high-tier reality within a larger framework. 

This shift also impacts Mystic Eyes of Death Perception. Originally, MEoDP was not merely about seeing death in the literal sense; it was an existential insight into the inherent termination of all things, grounded in the abstract nature of Shiki's perception. Shiki saw a world where every phenomenon inevitably meets its end, linking her to the void and the cessation inherent in the One. In modern canon, this abstract dimension is now framed as an accessible, almost spatial location, reducing MEoDP to a simple skill rather than a profound, metaphysical insight.

Zelretch’s Second Magic is another example of this shift. It was once a power to manipulate parallel realities and control time itself, tied to an abstract manipulation of all possible dimensions. Now, it is portrayed as "timeline hopping," a mechanic that restricts it to fixed, limited points. This shift reduces the magic from an abstract force rooted in infinite possibilities to something much more mundane. It’s a microcosm of a broader trend: what was once boundless and metaphysical is now confined by physical limitations.

The universe's pruning of timelines due to energy expansion only worsens this. In the older Type-Moon canon, the universe was portrayed as an indifferent, vast expanse, where the existence of humanity and the progression of time held no intrinsic significance in the grand scheme of things. Stories and histories were destined to reach their natural conclusion, whether through the entropy that consumes all things, or an eventual cosmic oblivion. There was no need for intervention; the universe simply was. It did not care about human life or any single timeline, as everything was ultimately governed by abstract metaphysical truths, immutable and indifferent to the fleeting existence of individuals or civilizations. This fatalism was foundational, not just to the narratives, but to the very essence of the universe. Everything was destined to end, not because of any failure or external force, but because endings were part of the fabric of existence itself.

By contrast, modern Type-Moon canon introduces the idea that the universe "prunes" timelines to prevent excess energy from causing instability. This premise fundamentally shifts the cosmic framework from an abstract, inevitable structure to a fragile system dependent on resources, particularly energy. Rather than being a vast, indifferent force where time and space were not restricted by limitations, the universe in the modern canon appears to be governed by a finite pool of resources. If timelines grow too numerous, they must be pruned to maintain balance. This introduces an unnecessary fragility and contingency to the universe, making it seem as though it is bound by external limitations rather than abstract metaphysical laws.

The Types, once conceived as near-invincible, reality-warping entities born from the will of planets, also suffer from this change. In modern canon, they can be killed by physical attacks (e.g., crashing onto Earth), which contradicts their original role as vast, cosmic entities beyond human comprehension. The shift makes them seem more like powerful creatures rather than conceptual forces of reality.

Overall, this recontextualization reduces the existential and philosophical weight of the original Type-Moon works in favor of a system bound by physical limitations. It’s laughable that people think there’s only one canon when Type-Moon has clearly reworked its older series. The two canons may share names, but their metaphysical frameworks are worlds apart.

So I couldn't care less about a butchered version of Void that has nothing to do with the original and would get soloed by any competent reality warper in Old TM being supposedly inferior to PM, while in a limited Servant container anyway. Applying GO Void's anti feats to OG Void is like applying the anti feats of the Batman in Nolan's movies to the comic iteration of his, simply because they are both "Batman". It's disingenuous.

Furthermore, Fate/Prototype and Manaka also belong to the modern TM canon, as they incorporate the concepts of quantum time locks and pruning phenomena, mechanisms ensuring historical events remain fixed and stagnated timelines are erased. This directly contradicts the Old Type-Moon multiverse, which depicted a nihilistic view of humanity’s fate, with no pruning process in place.

The modern canon promotes pro-humanist themes, prioritizing progress and evolution at the cost of individual agency, whereas the older canon embraced anti-humanist themes, acknowledging the inevitability of humanity’s decline. Manaka’s desire to create an "Eternal Britain" embodies stagnation, an idea directly opposed by the fixed events and pruning system of the modern setting. This confirms that her existence is firmly rooted in the modern TM framework, making her irrelevant in discussions of Kara no Kyoukai’s original metaphysics. Under the new pruning system, older series like Angel Notes and the original Melty Blood cannot even happen to begin with.

So not only these Fate arguments are weak to a closer examination of in-universe evidence, but they come from an entirely separate continuity in the first place.

The "fight defensively" stuff:

That’s cool, but at the end of the day, it’s just his opinion. I’m not obligated to abide by it, especially when the actual stories he’s written provide far stronger evidence to the contrary. The Kara no Kyoukai lore makes the idea of Shiki being inferior to the likes of Saber or Lancer a logical impossibility. How do Servants, entities merely empowered by the collective unconscious of humanity, defeat someone who embodies a cosmic force that has shaped matter, time, and space across countless reincarnations and cycles of existence? Someone who can erase from existence every possible concept that emerges from the Root, including words, sealed worlds with no pre-defined laws, and even fundamental principles of reality itself, while being able to perfectly replicate any technique and master any task she commits herself to? They don't. Simple as that.

So Nasu’s comment is ultimately irrelevant because nothing in his work actually supports it. In fact, Nasu himself has admitted that he makes ambiguous or nonsensical statements as a way to cope with deadline pressures, meaning these aren’t absolute truths: just offhand remarks made on the spot without much thought. They hold no real weight over the source material or the official guidebooks:

Q: Does Nasu Kinoko make ambiguous/incomprehensible statements because he is the creator of the universe? 

 A: Well, the creator is suffering for the deadline. Ah, don't suffer! In Ryunosuke's theory, gods are seriously cornered. Day and night, deadline and lower back pain, anime and games. But gods are the lowest slaves. So I can't continue without making 1 or 2 ambiguous statements. ~ 10th anniversary Q&A

Take, for example, when Nasu was asked why Shiki couldn’t kill words in KnK Chapter 6. He claimed that her Mystic Eyes of Death Perception can only kill things that "physically decay:"

Q: Seeing as how Shiki wasn't able to kill words, I'd like to know, how far does her capability to understand death actually extend? <The Red Loser Isn't a Loser!>

Nasu: Well, it's just a rule of thumb, but if it's the normal Shiki then she can kill everything that physically decays. The thing with words is that she doesn't regard their death as "decay" but rather "fading into oblivion".

Takeuchi: Ah, so it's a problem of recognition, then.

Nasu: Of course, that realm of recognition is already no problem at all for the inhuman Miss " ". -Kara no Kyoukai Movie Pamphlet Q&A Chapter 6 – "Oblivion Recorder"

This is an absurd statement, considering Chapter 5 explicitly establishes that MEoDP can kill intangible and formless concepts, hence why Shiki was able to escape Araya’s infinite void. If we were to take Nasu’s comment seriously, KnK would have ended at Chapter 5 because Shiki never would have escaped. No, scratch that, it would have ended at Chapter 3, since Asagami’s distortions were already non-physical. And this isn’t just a powerscaling issue; it’s a direct contradiction of the plot. This passage alone destroys this asinine assertion from Nasu:

Surrounded by walls that cannot be destroyed by any physical impact, this closed world is an inescapable cage. You sealed Shiki within there, and you found solace in that. Certainly, it is perfect. However, such things won't work against 'it.' Just as magic is omnipotent in civilized society, 'it' conflicts with beings like us who live by concepts. We pose a threat to common sense, but─── Shiki is the grim reaper to the unconventional, as you should have experienced."

An enclosed, infinite space with no exit was impenetrable to conventional means. Since it had no form, physical weapons could not touch it. But Ryougi Shiki's power was meant to target such intangible things.

But, Araya Souren, because you're a mage, you treated magic as absolute. Closing off a space doesn't matter. Something that abstract—she'd break through it with ease!" - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5

There's also a passage where Shiki corrects God's Word on her not being able to kill words, as they end like everything else:

The magus once said, "Even I cannot kill words." But still, they too will die someday.

Everything will fade, disappear, and die.

Otherwise, the boundary between past and future would blur. Because things can’t be retrieved once lost, we treasure them so they won’t disappear.

...But why is something called "not eternal" just because it vanishes?

Even if something fades away or is forgotten, its existence doesn’t change. The only thing that changes is our own minds, the way we perceive it.

I should have told him.

That’s why... there’s no point in seeking eternity in oblivion.

What is meant to be forgotten will naturally be forgotten, slipping into sleep without further distortion. The act of forgetting itself is one way to define eternity.

Now I understand why the boy named SHIKI, who once existed within me, chose to forget those days.

He treasured those memories by letting them rest, so that they wouldn’t alter the heart that lives on in the present.

Even if I can’t recall them, the fact that they existed will never change.

...That magus must have known this, yet he couldn’t accept it as an answer. Lacking a true self, he clung to words that wouldn’t die, craving eternity in something certain.

─── How unfulfilling.

An eternity that can be put into words is worthless. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 6

The argument Nasu presents in the Q&A, suggesting that Shiki lacks the ability to recognize the “death” of words because they don’t “decay” but “fade into oblivion”, is rendered meaningless when Shiki herself states that fading into oblivion is a form of death. The very fact that she acknowledges oblivion as part of the natural cycle of existence proves that it falls within her domain of mortality.

This isn’t an isolated case either. He’s made similar errors, like claiming Aoko in KnK was still a teenage apprentice, despite the novel mentioning over 400 times that she’s a True Magic user and explicitly stating she attended high school eight years before the story’s events. His statements aren’t even consistent: first, he says Void Shiki is only as strong as Ciel, then later claims she’s the second strongest character. So which is it? In fact, Nasu has a history of making errors and forgetting key details about the lore, which you can see here in more detail.

On top of all that, Nasu has outright admitted that when he wrote KnK, he had an entirely different mindset and worldview. By 2007, when most of these statements were made, he had changed so drastically that he considered his “old self” to be dead. That’s why he forced a “Frankenstein sequel” (Future Gospel) onto KnK, contradicting its core themes, simply to reflect his personal transformation and shift the story to match his new outlook.

So not only has the man himself told you not to take his comments too seriously, not only has he made verifiably false statements that break KnK’s plot, but you’re expecting him to correctly recall the finer details of a story he no longer has the mindset to even write, to the point that he had to patch together something like Future Gospel just to move on.

At this point, you’d be better off providing actual lore-based feats for Servants that suggest they’d last more than five seconds against Shiki. 

Even the commentary of Kara no Kyoukai Volume 3 explicitly describes Void Shiki as the embodiment of the Divine realm, identifying her as "God" herself. This designation leaves no room for interpretations that would suggest Void struggles with trivial opponents like Servants. The very material contradicts such notions, and any attempt to place Void in such a scenario causes the narrative to collapse instantly.

Here is a brief recap of how to really view the situation based on the statements he has released:

1. Nasu's "Old Self" (1997-2003) → Original Vision of KnK & Tsukihime
   • Kara no Kyoukai (1997) and Tsukihime (2000-2001) reflect his original thematic and metaphysical ideas.
   • Even at this time, he already had a remake concept in mind, but it wasn’t a contradiction, just an upgrade.
   • This was before Fate/Stay Night (2004) changed his approach to storytelling and worldbuilding.
2. Melty Blood’s Early Development (2002-2009) → Retained Pre-2004 Ideology
   • Melty Blood (2002) was written during the era of the original Nasuverse mindset and likely preserved its lore.
   • Even Re-Act (2004) and Act Cadenza (2007) were written in this period before Nasu had fully moved on from his old self.
   • Actress Again (2009) used novel Ryougi, but it was ironically to promote the movies, meaning that Melty Blood staff still followed the old lore despite corporate-driven adaptations. This is why you see people on the internet here and there complaining that AA Ryougi is "out of character" : It's because they are more so familiar with the movie version, thus the the original Ryougi from the 90s feels alien.
   • The AA guidebook in Melty Blood Archives (2021) remains perfectly consistent with older lore, further supporting that Melty Blood stayed faithful while Nasu drifted.
3. Fate (2004) & Nasu's Transformation (2004-2007) → The "Death" of Old Nasu
   • The creation of Fate/Stay Night in 2004 represents Nasu’s shift toward a more shonen, structured, and marketable storytelling style.
   • His powerscaling contradictions from 2004-2007 suggest his new perspective wasn’t aligned with his older works anymore.
   • KnK movies (2007) were released, at which point Nasu explicitly said he was “dead” as a writer and had changed entirely.
   • This shift culminated in Future Gospel, which reflected his new mindset rather than the original themes of KnK.

How This All Connects & What It Means

• Melty Blood = Old Nasuverse Preservation
  • The Melty Blood series remained true to the pre-2004 vision, despite being developed alongside Nasu’s shift.
  • This explains why Actress Again Ryougi feels novel-accurate, while the movies and Fate/Tsukihime Remake reflect his new self.
  • Even decades later, the AA Guidebook (2021) remains faithful, proving the Melty Blood writers were the keepers of the old lore.
• Post-2004 Nasu = Retcon & Reinvention
  • His Fate works led him to change fundamental worldbuilding elements, which caused contradictions in power-scaling and metaphysics.
  • The KnK anime and Future Gospel were written in the mindset of “new Nasu”, making them detached from the 1997 KnK novel.
  • His statements about KnK and Tsukihime from 2004-2007 reflect his evolving views, rather than absolute truths about the original works.
• Future Gospel = Nasu’s New Self, Not KnK's Natural Continuation
  • He explicitly admitted that Future Gospel was a patchwork for fans and that his original self was "dead."
  • This aligns with why Future Gospelcontradicts the themes and character arcs of the novel.

Conclusion:

1. Melty Blood (especially Actress Again) is a more reliable source for old Tsukihime/KnK lore than anything Nasu said after 2004.
2. Nasu’s 2004-2007 statements about KnK/Tsukihime are reflections of his new ideas, not hard lore.
3. Future Gospel is more of a new interpretation than a natural continuation of the novel.
4. The contradictions in power-scaling and lore stem from Nasu shifting directions or genuine mistakes/misremembering.

In conclusion, Void (Or Ryougi in general really) is by far the strongest character in Old Type-Moon, and this arguments and line of thinkings do not work and are, frankly speaking, getting very old and tiring to hear.

The opposition's response:

So, the people on VSBW have tried (And I highlight "tried") to dismantle my counterarguments through the following representatives:

-Random dude:

This guy argues that Nasu "didn't think too much" about the Root to dismiss anti-feats. But if a writer supposedly doesn't put much thought into their own story, why should I take their work seriously at all? Even Nasu himself admitted that the version of him who wrote Kara no Kyoukai is "dead," and that his current writing is limited to patchwork continuations that butcher the original themes of the novel.

Worse, he admitted that he felt like this was the case, meaning his stance isn’t based on anything concrete but rather an emotional, subjective disagreement with mine, something I have no reason to entertain.

This same person later deactivated their account and openly admitted in another thread that they hadn’t fully read the arguments supporting my stance. They were mainly there to post memes, so this behavior isn't surprising.

-Plotinus' secret son:

An alt account parodying me expressed his despair over me using terms such as "Neoplatonism" or "Nous" to make comparisons between TM's metaphysics and philosophical concepts.

-Various Alt NPCs resorting to shit-talking and projection. The funniest part? One of them broke the rules, got banned, and somehow thought I was the one who banned him. Just goes to show how they're more focused on stirring up drama than actually engaging in discussion or thinking outside the box. Another hilarious misstep was them claiming I don’t go to VSBW, completely unaware that I did, only to get banned after Wankbreaker reported me over an irrelevant offensive term as an excuse for failing to remotely handle my arguments for ten pages straight.

This guy described them the best:

Lmao.

-Theorical:

This is pretty long, so I won't send all screenshots, but rather quote the most interesting "arguments":

Kek, dude thought The One has infinite potential, even though that, is the indefinite Dyad of which the ones nature imposes definiteness in it, embarrassing. Not only that he imposes the limitation of Taiji to the One, even more embarrassing.

He opens by claiming that my statement, "The One has infinite potential", is somehow a restriction, when that is literally the whole point of omnipotence. I'm also not "imposing" Taiji onto The One, since Type-Moon itself explicitly states that the Taiji at the beginning is The One and the source of the Yin-Yang division.

Stillness are not terms ever used in Neoplatonism, you're chatting, don't worry, the citations are coming, I'm gonna be waiting for you to cite where you got these grotesque interpretations of Neoplatonism.

I never said that Stillness is a term used in Neoplatonism, just that the One/Root draws inspiration from Neoplatonism, but with the Taiji mixed in to form its own unique framework. Irrelevant point.

What the hell were you saying, this is hardly intelligible from a metaphysics standpoint.

Without the distinctions imposed by Stillness, The One would not be able to create anything outside itself, since it is infinite completeness. Without Stillness, there would be no Death, because nothing would ever leave The One's singularity in the first place. That’s not difficult to comprehend.

That's what we call the Dyad not stillness, but slay little queen, Death in type moon is treated as an experience of Pure Consciousness, which has nothing to do with stillness nor the dyad, two distinct theosophical models, can't blame you, all you know is the chat gpt's teachings of Neoplatonism, yuck.

Now he suddenly claims to own Type-Moon metaphysics and insists that Stillness must be called the Dyad, without any actual reasoning. He also argues that Death is an "experience of Pure Consciousness," when Death in Type-Moon is the cessation of everything, including consciousness and existence. And to top it off, he then states that Stillness and the Dyad are two "distinct theosophical models," which means... he just admitted that Stillness is valid as a philosophical concept? Amazing.

Stop repeating the words "The One" then, sounds pretentious, the word was mention only once or twice in Type Moon

Here he commands me to stop using "The One" as a term, even though he acknowledged that TM itself used it once or twice, meaning I'm perfectly free to use it. Kek.

The rest of his argument was so boring I didn’t even feel like quoting it, especially since I’ve already responded to it.

The entire issue with this guy is that I’m using Neoplatonic terms to describe Type-Moon’s unique framework. He somehow thinks that using those terms automatically means I must be subscribing to Neoplatonism exactly as it exists, with no possible deviation. That’s childish, rigid thinking. That’s literally his entire argument. He doesn’t engage with the actual points, he just tries to impose a philosophy he claims to be an expert in onto a fictional universe with its own rules while acting as if it must align with his knowledge. And yet I’m supposed to be the "narcissistic" one? Classic projection.

This is the same guy who thinks me using “little worms” as an insult (which, mind you, I only said in response to Wankbreaker making an entire Reddit thread mocking an out-of-context statement of mine instead of engaging with me directly, something that is objectively slimy behavior) is an unbearable sin. Meanwhile, he and his little goons, who are just a bunch of alt accounts, are out here talking shit in far worse ways and even breaking the rules due to their own lack of self-awareness.

The funniest part? He openly admits to not wanting to read my side’s actual arguments:

So in the end, he’s just another try-hard philosopher LARPer who projects his arrogance, pseudo-intellectualism, alt-spamming, and ad hominem attacks onto me. All while consciously making these types of videos public.

Like bro, you literally sound like Gollum or something. You shouldn’t try to talk big when anyone can read your low-tier insults and hear that voice in their head.

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Anyway, this is literally all that VSBW could come up with. No counterarguments, just every logical fallacy you can think of, on top of them admitting they don’t even want to fully read my arguments. And then they have the gall to jack off to ancient philosophers? When they’re exactly the type of low-attention-span people those philosophers would despise? Your hero Plotinus would be deeply disappointed. You’ve gathered this "Avengers"-like force of VSBW, only for it to collectively lack the intelligence of an average human being. That’s quite the accomplishment.

In conclusion: There are no actual counterarguments to this thread. The downplay of Kara no Kyoukai and original Tsukihime stems from people like this, people more interested in fitting the meta than actually figuring out the truth of things. That alone should tell you everything you need to know about the legitimacy of VSBW.

But this is what the Type-Moon community is. A cesspool of gooners whose entire existence revolves around their gacha addiction and mindlessly worshipping a man who himself admitted he was a completely different person when he actually wrote good stories like Kara no Kyoukai. And its fanboys? They twist the truth, not because they’re ignorant—though they are—but because they feel physically threatened by it.

Reddit is full of subhuman apes who can’t even process a simple English sentence without distorting its meaning to fit their fragile egos. They suppress actual analysis, enforcing an attention span so short it would make a goldfish embarrassed. Beast's Lair? A group of clowns who think knowing Japanese makes them important, despite proving time and time again that they don’t know a single flying fuck about the older series. And VSBW? A monument to retardation, where logic goes to die.

No mainstream place that discusses Type-Moon can be taken seriously outside of their low-effort, brain-dead interpretations of Fate or their butchered takes on Tsukihime, back when it wasn’t tainted by a man who got gaslit by his own success and realized he could milk this army of morons for eternity.

It's amusing how these people focus on harassing me instead of "fixing" Type-Moon on their own site, VSBW. It just proves how much my words got under their skin. They even rally ancient irrelevant trolls just to scream at me, while I sit back, knowing the truth stings them. If this is so important to them, I can only imagine how empty their lives must be. Not giving them attention is a fitting conclusion for these individuals.