Explaining the separate canons of Type-Moon
And people expect me to believe this is the same shit? lmao
So, Type-Moon is misunderstood to be a unified canon by some. This group is starting to become more of a minority these days, but they still exist. So in this thread, I will be explaining how the canons are split, what is canon to what, etc.
Before I go any further though, I'd link to link to another post of mine > here < that explains why Death of the Author is required for Type-Moon as a whole to be coherent, as I go into how Nasu constantly contradicts all source material with his nonsensical statements, with him also admitting to being a compulsive liar, etc. Just felt like I needed to link it in case anyone brings up anything Nasu potentially says in the future.
HOWEVER, even if we go off what Nasu has said, he himself considers the Nasu of old a completely different person that is dead:
> Nasu: When I wrote Kara no Kyoukai, I felt resistance towards so many things—society, entertainment, culture—and it was my motivation to write the story. Now, I am thrilled to be writing from a place of gratitude, though with just a touch of sadness. It feels like the old Nasu Kinoko has passed on. I suppose you could say I've gone under a heavy detox, and feel much more virtuous now (laughs). - Kara no Kyoukai Movie - Nasu Kinoko Interview
He goes further to say that the sequel to Kara no Kyoukai years later was a "Frankenstein" sequel to a "perfect ending" and didn't reflect the original intent or message of the story at all, which I will get into more in the "Side Contradiction" section. But I mention this as evidence that Nasu himself already knows that his later shit is in direct contradiction to the original works.
Edit: Nasu also recently acknowledged the verse has plotholes and he has multiple writers and information managers to help him prevent that to a degree (but still fails). He did claim he will fix major errors, but this is proven to be yet another one of his empty statements:
Nasu:
As Yakitori mentioned, if that happens, the setting and worldview will gradually become megastructures (huge artificial structures). It's difficult to organize these increasingly large settings, but fortunately, since I started working on FGO, the number of "information managers other than myself" has increased, including other writers and Rasengr.
They'll say, "Huh? Nasu-san, what you said just now is different from what you said three years ago," and I'll say, "Hahaha, I guess that happens sometimes☆," but if there's a really fatal mistake in the settings, I'll fix it. That's how I'm doing it, just barely.
So even if the details of the information and setting get a little shaky, as long as you have a firm grasp on what you're going to write about from the very beginning, like "I'm going to write about this theme for the next 10 years," I think the river will flow.
The first thing to address is where the canons split as a whole. Well for starters, I'm going to address two potential canon splits you could argue for, with the first one being the most concrete out of them, with absolute evidence proving it, while the second one is less concrete, but ironically more likely overall from a holistic point of view.
So, for the first one, it posits that the Old Type-Moon canon should, for the most part, be from 1996 to the beginning of 2015, with anything after that point only being canon if it was an older series that is still continuing, or a sequel to an old series that explicitly cannot co-exist with the new canon.
Basically, once Fate/GO starts, that is when the canons split for the most part. There is one earlier, but it's a bit of an outlier I will get to later. Aside from said outlier, the actual first pieces of lore that caused the canon split are actually from Extella, which comes later, but GO completely follows Extella, making it the general cutoff limit.
There are some series that are canon to both Old Type-Moon and Modern Type-Moon, but generally, Modern Type-Moon contradicts older series so horribly that the older series can't actually co-exist, and instead some unseen altered butchered version of them exist in Modern TM at best. And in some cases, they can't exist in any capacity (Angel Notes).
So what caused this split? Type-Moon has many timelines, so anything that contradicts can be chalked up to different timelines, right? Not quite. There are irreconcilable lore differences between Old Type-Moon and Modern Type-Moon that reach a point where mere timeline differences do not suffice as a viable explanation.
But before we get into the differences, there are some potential questions to address.
Q&A
Q: Are you declaring there is a canon split to benefit your preferred series in versus debates?
A: No. The differences I am mentioning make things completely incompatible. They logically cannot co-exist. And if you said they did, any argument one makes claiming anti-feats from the newer stuff debunks the older stuff can be reversed by saying any feats from the older series debunk the newer anti-feats. You could say new overrides old, but I could say the opposite because the old serves as the foundation of the verse. It just becomes a complete mess of nonsense that would devolve into both sides going "Nuh uh." "No u."
Q: What gives you the right to decide what is and isn't canon to what?
A: It's not me deciding what fits with what, it's logic dictating this.
Q: If some official Type-Moon person came out and said everything is canon, wouldn't your argument collapse?
A: No, as their statement contradicts all source materials of the entire verse. Source material overrides everything else. Hell, in the Nasu WoG debunk thread I linked, I mentioned how if Akira Toriyama (mainstream example) said Goku is a Namekian from the planet Yardrat, or claimed Raditz could beat Kid Buu, those statements would be invalid due to the source material blatantly proving otherwise.
Q: Are the contradictions just powerscaling stuff?
A: Not at all. The narratives and characters of past series are massively contradicted as well, which is the biggest issue.
Q: If these older series aren't canon to the newer ones, and the newer ones have altered versions of those older characters, how do we learn more about them fully if we don't have a modern version of their series dedicated to them?
A: You don't. Blame the incompetence or lack of care from the people doing this shit.
So, with that out of the way, what are the huge differences? Well, let's get into it.
Contradiction 1: How the multiverse works is completely different
In Old TM, the multiverse had infinite timelines:
One may say that there are still timelines being created constantly, so there can't be infinite timelines. This is incorrect. There is a difference between infinite timelines and all possible timelines. You can have infinite timelines, but still have various ones excluded from that infinite set. This has nothing to do with size. More timelines being created doesn't change the size of the multiverse to infinity+. That's nonsense. But it does add to the diversity of the infinite multiverse. The concept of set theory applies here, since we aren't talking about actual physical size, which set theory doesn't apply to, contrary to popular battle board beliefs.
Now, I could see someone potentially using another argument to try and counter the timelines ever being infinite, that being the fact that it is stated that Zelretch drawing energy from parallel worlds for his attack is called a "VIRTUALLY limitless ether cannon." If it is virtually limitless, that means it isn't actually limitless, which would mean there wasn't infinite timelines to draw power from.
If someone did think of this argument, I'd give them an A for effort, but it falls flat regardless. Why? Well ignoring the fact this is a Nasu statement just to really hammer home the point, it's because of the concept of "barrels." One may have X amount of energy, but they can only release so much of it at once depending on the size of the barrel they can create, with the barrel being the gateway to expel your magical energy. The best example is Aoko Vs. Flat Snark:
So Zelretch would have infinite magical energy gathered from infinite parallel worlds, but he would only be able to create a finite barrel that can only release a finite amount of his infinite reserves at once, hence a "virtually" limitless ether cannon. So this doesn't debunk Old TM having infinite parallel worlds at all.
So what about Modern TM? Well, its multiverse works entirely different.
In Modern TM, there exist the universe/cosmos. This cosmos constantly expands in both size and energy.
This cosmos has timelines of... seemingly microcosms of itself. These timelines are finite and multiply rapidly. These timelines require certain energy levels to maintain, and if they continue to be left unchecked, their expansion will outpace the expansion of the cosmos, which will lead to the cosmos lacking the energy required to sustain all of the timelines, which will lead to a collapse of everything.
To solve this, Alaya, the collective unconscious will of humanity, culls certain future possibilities based on if they reach dead end/conclusion with no further progress, regardless of if said end is good or bad. (Idiotic and malevolent, I know.) They do this so that the propagation of timelines is slowed to where it will not outpace the expansion of the cosmos:
A Quantum Timelock is a metaphysical event, it calculates the average “value” of each parallel world’s events, then locks past events down. A phenomenon that separates what was, and is, from what might be.
Our universe allows for countless possibilities and creates many parallels worlds and histories with different developments.
The universe has a finite amount of energy to spend maintaining each parallel world. Because the universe itself would expire if these realities were to expand without limit, it conserves energy by, excising worlds, at specific intervals, that have veered too far from the strongest, most stable timelines.
The Moon Cell has concluded that the universe we perceive of, which should be unstable, is being stabilized across the present, past, and future by this culling process and by quantum time locks.
The easiest way to visualize the process is to envision time as a giant tree, one that would grow indefinitely if left alone. The excision process is comparable to trimming the unneeded branches and leaving only the trunk of that tree.
History that becomes a part of the “time lock” will not change, even if it is affected by the past and future. The incidents that occur during a time lock will, in fact, never change, no matter what happens.
Even if one were to go back in time before the time lock to try and change history, once one reached the time lock, history would be forcefully restored to what was already registered there.
In a universe with quantum time locks, the outcome that is registered in an quantum time lock will not change. A time traveler can only alter the “process” by which it happens, but never the “result.”
For example, imagine that there was a war in Britain, and that the “result” that was locked in afterwards was that Britain was destroyed.
Even if you could manage to travel back in time and affect history so that Britain flourished, the war ended peacefully, and everyone had a happy ending… the moment that history reached the time lock, it would cause whatever “corrections” were necessary to ensure that, despite your efforts, Britain was still destroyed.
You might be able to change the lives of one, two, or perhaps even a handful of people, but you could not change the course of the vast river of human history.
That is the “Quantum Time Lock,” also known as the “Foundation of Human Order” in the world of magecraft. - Fate/Extella Material
Now before anyone tries to use set theory to claim the multiverse can be infinite in size with infinite energy and still expand, no, it cannot. That's a grave misuse of set theory. But since going into that here would be a massive digression, I will just link a very good debunk on this > here. <
So Old TM has infinite timelines, while Modern TM has finite timelines that rapidly expand. This clearly can't be chalked up to timeline differences, as the contradictions are the timelines themselves.
This leads to another huge contradiction, which is an extension of this one.
Contradiction 2: Angel Notes cannot exist in Modern Type-Moon
As we know now, possibilities that reach a dead end for humanity, good or bad, with no further progress, are erased in Modern TM. This would make Angel Notes impossible to happen, as it's a story of where Gaia dies, with the new dominant entities being the 100 species of A-Rays created by humans, who proceed to enter a war with humanity and render them nearly extinct.
Humanity creates the Ether Liners, who are essentially so evolved that they can't even be properly considered humans anymore, and the war continues, with the Ether Liners being able to actually fight the A-Rays. However, the war is interrupted at the arrival of the Ultimate Ones that aim to wipe out all life in Gaia.
While Type-Venus was taken down and Type-Pluto, Type-Jupiter, and Type-Saturn were killed, Godo and the Six Sisters were also killed, leaving Ado Edem as the only person left capable of killing the Ultimate Ones, with several more being left to deal with.
It even states that it is a "hopeless story."
A story that describes the extermination of humanity, and the war between the new humans and the planets. Its genre is science fiction.
It recounts fairy tales of the war between the new humans, who adapted to the environment, and the A-Rays, who came from the artificially created next-generation ecosystems.
On the planet that was doomed to death, political strife developed between the two races, to the point where the mysterious beings, the Aristoteles, rushed over from the universe with the intent of completely wiping out all life---
In any case, ultimately it is a hopeless story. - Character Material - Ado Edem, page 30-31
This story cannot exist in Modern Type-Moon because it's a dead end with the extinction of humanity, meaning it would've been a possibility that would've been culled before manifesting.
Contradiction 3: The Root has been massively changed
Before getting into this mess, I would like to mention that I will be referring to The Root as "The One" when referring to its original version, and refer to it as "The Root" when referring to its modern version. The original canon uses "The Root" as well, but it also refers to it as "The One" multiple times, with the name being more fitting. On top of the reason for its name being incompatible with the modern version. I'm doing this so I can avoid writing "Modern/Old TM Root" every second.
Also, for anyone that sees this and thinks "This thing isn't omnipotent because it doesn't fit the requirements of > insert nonsensical VS Battles Wiki's requirements <", I've already dismantled their views on omnipotence > here. <
So getting into Old TM first, The One is the omnipotent abstract singularity from which all things flow from. All possible causality and potentiality exist within it. It has no mind and is just a thing, one that passively actualizes the potentiality within it randomly, leading to creation:
Notice it is even called "The One", referring to Neoplatonism, with the correct terminology to describe how it functions, with this not even being the only time it's called this:
—The swirl of the Root is a "place" where all causalities interlace, where all things are in potential, and therefore where nothing is whatsoever. - Kara no Kyoukai Epilogue
This is not merely something that is infinite, as Kara no Kyoukai makes a distinction between infinity and the boundlessness that is The One, with infinity still being contingent on limitations/boundaries of some kind, referring to the abstract laws that uphold reality, unlike The One, which is defined by no boundaries, abstract or otherwise and is contingent on nothing:
Infinity is not " ". To create infinity, you must define the finite. Without the finite, infinity cannot exist. Things have a boundary; only then can we conceive of infinity. In the infinity where she was placed, Ryougi Shiki found and cut through the impossible finite boundary.
...Indeed, within infinity, there should be no finite limits. The non-existent cannot be cut, which is why escape was deemed impossible. However—if there is no finite, then it's not infinity—it's "nothing." If there's any finite boundary, Shiki can find and sever it. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
There are many more examples, but this is explicit enough. Its ontological omnipotence is undeniable. The only thing I can think of with more explicit descriptions is Warhammer's Aethyr.
However, one may say that Ryougi was inside The One in KnK, but that's not actually true. Ryougi was semi-brain dead and couldn't view the outside world or anything. She was simply alone with her thoughts, unable to actually see anything. That's when her brain connected to as certain aspect of The One, which is her direct origin, resulting in her acquiring MEoDP. She even says light or darkness doesn't exist there. There is nothing there to see or dream about. She wasn't seeing a sky, light, darkness, concepts, or anything like that. Flowery wording is also used by Void to describe that event when recalling it, such as saying that Shiki was "shipwrecked" there. I don't think I need to explain why that isn't literal:
"—All that time she was floating there in that ocean which others call the "swirl of the Root." Shipwrecked all alone in the midst of「 」."- Kara no Kyoukai: Epilogue
This is backed up by the fact Ryougi was physically in her hospital bed the entire time:
But it said that Aoko arrived "in the flesh at The Root" in one translation, right? Well yes, it did say that, but it's proven to be flowery wording for dramatic effect, considering Aoko that entire time was literally standing on Earth in front of Touko:
The last thing someone may bring up is that The One is visually depicted in Mahoyo. This is true, but it's only a metaphorical depiction for us readers. We know it isn't literal because we see it inside Aoko when it says she reached it:
And I don't think anyone here is going to claim that Aoko contains The One.
So, with that out of the way, the fact every instance of someone connecting/reaching The One shows them still physically in the same spot they were on Earth the entire time is further proof that it is abstract.
Now here's where Modern Type-Moon screws up hard.
The Root in Modern Type-Moon, despite virtually copy and pasting 90s lore descriptions lazily, actually is a dimension one can access via dreaming, on top of it being a clearly visible location why a sky and clouds:
This alone proves that the Modern TM Root isn't some truly abstract omnipotent unifier of which everything is contingent upon like the 90s lore speaks of in regards to The One.
This means the Root is a physical place that the main creation of Modern TM was created by and is contingent on. But being completely inferior to and contingent upon another physical reality is no different from a lesser video game world being made up of the physical components of the true reality and being directly subordinate to it as an inferior world.
No, seriously. The Modern TM creation is created by the physical components of a higher physical reality and is contingent upon said reality and inferior to it. That's essentially an R>F layer, aka a video game world's relationship to the presumably true reality. This is the true nature of R>F layers. Every single one, except the highest one is literally sub-reality level. Far different from the true physical reality being contingent upon the abstract fundamentals of all things.
So the Root in Modern TM is clearly just a physical dimension that people can physically enter, including morons like Ritsuka.
Now, one may say that this is a dream, but even that doesn't make sense. That's basically saying "Hey, you can dream that you're in the LOCATION where completely abstract things with zero size that occupy zero space like logic itself exist." That makes no sense. You can't dream of the boundless source. You can only think of it and draw from its power. The fact there's a sky in the background with flower petals shows that it is a physical place and thus not a boundless source at all. Copy and pasting old lore descriptions doesn't resolve the literal anti-feats right in front of your face. A story can call someone omnipotent all they want, but if they lost, they lost, and thus aren't actually omnipotent, no matter how much the story claims they are. Same logic applies here.
The dream excuse also falls apart when you consider that dreams are supposed to be subconscious reconstructions of known reality. You can’t "dream of" something that lacks all form and existence because the brain has no reference point for it. Yet Modern TM presents it as a place with physical attributes, meaning it’s no longer an abstract root of all existence but simply a higher plane of existence.
There's also the fact this dream is real in some capacity, as he meets the actual Void Shiki there. Void Shiki outright stating that “having a name” means you shouldn’t be there proves that definition and identity contradict the nature of The Root. Yet, not only is she standing there in her physical body, but she’s literally talking to someone with a name.
This is Modern TM trying to have it both ways: Keeping the “boundless omnipotent source” descriptor while simultaneously making it a tangible location people can visit. But, even within their own writing, Void Shiki is calling attention to how absurd this is. The fact that they didn’t realize this contradiction when writing the scene is hilarious.
There was no light here. No, I suspect I had never fallen in the first place. Since there was nothing here. It wasn’t just that there was no light, there wasn’t even any darkness. Since there was nothing here, nothing was visible. There was no meaning to the concept of falling. Inside the 「 」 within which even form was meaningless, just my body kept sinking. The naked me; I’m a poisonous shade which made me want to turn my eyes away. Because everything 「here」 bore such a poisonous aura. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 4
The fact that Ryougi explicitly denies even the concept of falling shows that her experience within 「 」 transcended all forms of structure, physical, conceptual, or otherwise. There were no forces acting on her, no up or down, no contrast between light and darkness. It was absolute negation, a space beyond existence where even the idea of movement had no meaning.
Compare that to Modern Type-Moon’s Root, where people can enter, implying physicality, direction, and a defined somewhere that can be reached. That alone contradicts the idea that it’s truly boundless. A place that can be “entered” inherently acknowledges form, structure, and some form of metaphysical framework, which is antithetical to how The One was originally presented.
This fundamentally changes the nature of The Root. It’s no longer an omnipotent, unbounded source of all things, it’s just another high-tier reality within a larger framework.
Speaking of Void btw, time for the next contradiction.
Contradiction 4: Void Shiki's characterization is completely changed and reversed
Kara no Kyoukai by far is the most incompatible series with Modern Type-Moon, surpassing even Angel Notes I'd argue.
So, to begin, Void Shiki is the personality of Ryougi's body/soul/origin. Humans have a default personality birthed from their body/soul that is tied to their origin.
So, what are origins? Well, they are the fundamental abstract forces of creation, serving as the foundation of things, on top of acting as a guiding principle for said things. It is the pattern of one's soul, which dictates their innate personality and inclinations/urges.
The direction of everything that arose from fundamental cause. The α that enabled the existence of α, the absolute order that existed at the very core.
For instance, something with the Origin of “taboo, ” regardless of being born as a human, animal, or plant, would always exist to go against the morals established by the collective.
It was the idea that, independent of the process of reincarnation, humans acquired bodies and wisdom from the directional force at the point of origin, and acquired personalities that were only slightly different from their prior lives. - Garden of Sinners Pamphlet
Since their personality is set in stone due to being tied to an abstract force outside of creation, it cannot deviate or change via external circumstances, meaning Void Shiki in Timeline A couldn't have developed a different personality from Void Shiki in Timeline B. And if you argue that Void Shiki in Timeline B may be different due to having a different origin, then it wouldn't be Void Shiki at all anymore, as having a different origin would make one an entirely different person.
Now, there exist essentially two sides to every sentient being. The first is the personality of the body/soul/origin, which is the unchanging will of the origin.
The second is the personality of the mind, which is what we see regularly. It is the personality born of your brain. It is influenced by your origin, but it is also influenced from outside experiences, which can make the personality born of the mind deviate quite significantly from the personality of the origin.
Normally, the will/personalities of the origins are dormant, with them at best only acting as background urges to a person. But there are rare cases where one's origin can be awakened, which does two things.
One: It awakens the personality of the origin, and in the vast majority of cases, it begins to override and replace the personality of the mind, unless one has obscenely high willpower that you will find almost nowhere.
Two: One gains power from their origins being awoken. There are plenty of specifics, like universal traits all origin-awakened people have, but that isn't too relevant here. The main thing is that people can gain special powers and traits related to their origin if said origin is awakened:
Individuals who awakened their Origins would be consumed. This was due to “personality ” being something merely on the magnitude of one hundred years; it would be overwritten by the directional force born from the origin. However, humans (human bodies) who were overwritten by their Origins would acquire great powers. - Garden of Sinners Pamphlet
The personality of the mind is the Shiki Ryougi we see throughout the novel for the most part.
The personality of the origin is Void Shiki.
This is all important to remember for what is coming.
Now, what are the contradictions?
Well, Ryougi/Void's origin in Kara no Kyoukai is Nil, which is The One itself. Due to this, Void wishes for the death of all creation, as she finds it meaningless and tiresome, with Ryougi also having these same urges to end all things:
—My origin is nihil. From nihil I originated, the flesh that I am, the corpse in the womb to which life was somehow given. That is why Shiki can perceive death. For two years, in her comatose state, she was unable to view the outside world, and could do nothing but gaze into the nihil that Ryougi Shiki "is." More than simply seeing, she felt death.
—All that time she was floating there in that ocean which others call the "swirl of the Root." Shipwrecked all alone in the midst of " ".
Yes, indeed.
If nihil is her origin, then most likely she wills to bring all things to nought. Shiki is able to kill anything without exception, for that reason alone. The personality, Shiki, strives to negate. Why? Because that is the original pattern of her soul. The inclination to nihil, which ardently wishes the death of all creation.
—That is Shiki's capability. Much like Asagami Fujino, she perceives a unique channel in which things unseen by others become visible. When she "looks" at them, she is seeing a glimpse of the architect's floor-plan for all reality. That is the "swirl of the Root."
—But I can see much further than that. No, rather - I may well be that "swirl" myself. - Kara no Kyoukai Epilogue
The only reason Void cannot end creation is because of Ryougi, who overrides her will and thus limits her actions, as Ryougi, while not liking the world, finds it worth enduring if she can live a quiet life alone with just Mikiya. Due to this, Void has to go along with Ryougi's dream, and resorts to mostly staying dormant, only coming out to grant Mikiya a wish, since she also loves him like Ryougi, just not enough to make her not want to end all things if she could:
—That said, mine and Shiki's dreams seem to be different. Shiki, you see - she hates to be alone. I know. So pedestrian, isn't it? How tiresome Shiki is. How tiresome reality is. How tiresome - I am.
Her voice, barely even a whisper. She was looking somewhere afar, deep into the night. As if it was of incalculable importance, something never to be seen again.
—But there's no helping it, I'm afraid. I am a body and nothing more, after all. We are the one thing, she and I, so I've no choice but to follow along with her dream.
—Shiki is looking at the outside, while I am looking at the interior. But the interior, Ryougi Shiki's body, is in communion with that "place" they call the Root. So even though I see only the inside of her, I see...everything.
—And that is so painful, so tedious, so utterly pointless that I have to close my eyes to it. I will keep them closed. For me there is nothing otherwise. - Kara no Kyoukai Epilogue
And in case one says it makes no sense for Void to be bound to Ryougi's will, as she's omnipotent, she is not omnipotent. I have a thread > here < debunking all misconceptions about Void Shiki.
In Fate/GO, however, Void Shiki is some weird cringe as all hell waifu that admires humans and willingly fights for them:
She even likes Ritsuka, who is just some malevolent guy that keeps trying to stop the salvation of humanity due to his broken ideas of wanting humanity to progress and suffer forever in an infinite cycle:
Hell, that constant derpy waifu smile with those beaming eyes is in contrast to her demeanor and appearance in KnK:
She looked at him. Her eyes far older than she seemed. - Kara no Kyoukai Epilogue
She stared out at the drifting oceanic sky. In her eyes, a surreptitious grief. A whisper addressed to no-one, not more than a breath, passed her lips.
—To live ordinarily, and die an ordinary death.
Ah. That, indeed.
—How lonely...
She looked deeply into a dark with neither end nor beginning. Thus Ryougi Shiki made her farewell. - Kara no Kyoukai Epilogue
This entire video is a contradiction to KnK Void.
And it gets even worse in some others, but I've made my point.
Contradiction 5: Origin stat contradictions
As shown earlier, when someone gets their origin awakened, they obtain great powers from it. Not only will they gain some special trait(s) related to their origin, but the way their power works is different.
When one has their origin awakened, their physical stats are dictated by their mind/will, as opposed to the natural limits of their physical body. This is how Shiki, who had his origin awakened via his near-death experience and obtained MEoDP due to his origin being Death, is able to far surpass the limits of his physical body:
Likewise, this is explained more in CCC, where it says the Servants with their pseudo-origin awakening can raise their stats in accordance to their will/on command:
Now, this translation does say "on command", but another says "according to his will":
I think given the entirety of the context from a holistic point of view, it should be clear that they can raise it on command in the sense that it raises in accordance to their willpower, as opposed to raising it freely and arbitrarily without any restrictions.
Now, a huge contradiction arises due to the Tsukihime Remake, which is supposed to replace the original entirely for the modern canon, hence why it's a complete remake/overhaul.
Shiki Tohno in the original, despite his stats fluctuating based on his mindset, can outright fight Dead Apostle Ancestors and even stomp them when he has lethal intent. You can see his capabilities in this good, but somewhat outdated thread > here. <
However, in the Remake, despite having the exact same origin, he can't even stand up to a weak as shit Dead Apostle Ancestor that is far below normal ones, with him being a rank 6 out of 9 on the vampire hierarchy scale, with him only being an Ancestor via a technicality:
Vampire Rank VI: Dead Apostle (Lesser)
Completely self-reliant “blood-suckers.” They can create children by blood sucking · corruption, but probably due to the limits of just reaching the rank of Dead Apostle, they cannot create children of rank VI or above. One could say they are a stronghold.
The vampires nestled in Souya are of this rank. Calamities that create servants as their “owner,” and prey on the village. Vlov is included in this rank as well, but ultimately he “skips” past this rank through a certain method. - Tsukihime Material 1
In fact, Remake Tohno is barely superhuman fodder who could barely slice spikes out of the air that took 1.5 seconds to cross 30 meters:
Remake Tohno also couldn't strike Vlov within 10 meters in less than 2 seconds:
Remake Tohno could only manage covering a 30 meter gap in two seconds when bouncing off a rock in the sky, making him move at speeds far faster than he ever could normally. And he could only make one decision per second:
There's a lot of other shit that's fodder in the Remake, like Remake Tohno dodging Luminous Arcuied's attack by letting gravity pull him down faster than her attack could reach him. What I sent here is just one of countless examples.
But by both feats and his hierarchy within the verse, OG Tohno and Remake Tohno are entirely incompatible, despite having the same origin, the same training, the same age, the same life up to that point, etc.
I mean honestly, the fact it's the Tsukihime REMAKE says it all. It's a replacement of the older version for the modern era. Everything is also extremely nerfed as a result, since you can't have Fate characters be relevant in cross-overs with the power depicted in the 90s era and early 2000s era of non-Fate Type-Moon series.
Contradiction 6: First Magic changed
How was it changed? Well, many do not know this, but Araya Souren was the wielder of the First Magic during the 90s, and that magic was Stillness.
This is going to be very long and complex compared to the other sections, so skipping it is understandable.
But before we get into it, I want to mention that KnK explicitly mentions that Araya has True Magic openly, meaning this isn't up for debate:
This building is a spell. An altar constructed to solidify Araya Soren's will. In order to carry out magecraft of a grand scale you needed not only an incantation and your own prana, but also the sacrifice of other lives and the strength of the land itself.
By constructing a magical temple in the present day, Araya is attempting to carry out magecraft of an even greater scale.
No, it wasn't magecraft. A mystery that used a twisted dimension of this level was already no longer on the level of magecraft.
This was --- that was right, a mystery of a province unreachable with today's knowledge. There was no doubt that this was an act of absolute power that human hands could not reach, magic. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
So the only question that remains is which magic is it that Araya has out of the five. Is it the First or the Fourth? Well, it's time to get into the explanation.
(Credit to Crimsonslayer for nearly all of this section.)
Let's start by establishing that Araya Souren achieved True Magic. This is not even up to debate:
“Sure, you didn’t make a mistake. For you as a Magus, this is the best solution. But, what if the assumption itself is a mistake? You isolated Shiki? Not in a room somewhere in this apartment complex, but you isolated her in this apartment complex itself? A Bounded Field that achieves spacial isolation is already on the level of Magic. It’s a miracle that only a Bounded Field expert like you could create. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
Understand? I said this just before, but the best wards don't feel weird to a normal person. Let's call it "an idea which forces itself on the unconscious mind". The best of the best reach the stage of "disconnection of space"; but to go that far you are looking at magicians rather than sorcerers. Currently there's only one magician in this country, so basically that kind of ward just can't be formed. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 4
No, it wasn't magecraft. A mystery that used a twisted dimension of this level was already no longer on the level of magecraft.
This was --- that was right, a mystery of a province unreachable with today's knowledge. There was no doubt that this was an act of absolute power that human hands could not reach, magic. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
This isn't mere narrative hype. The concept is explicitly emphasized at least three separate times across Kara no Kyoukai, with indirect comparisons to Aoko Aozaki in Chapter 4 ("the only other magician in Japan" Touko mentioned). The detail and frequency of these mentions are deliberate, specific, and central to the story.
So how does Araya Souren's form of True Magic work?
As Touko Aozaki explains, Araya's ability is the power of "spatial isolation", the complete disconnection of a space from the outside world. An extremely advanced evolution of bounded fields. Later, Cornelius Alba makes the nature of this even clearer:
A twisted dimension of this level should be completely separated from the physical laws of the outside world. Preparations for opening the path were finished long ago, Aozaki." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
This is key. The laws of physics define all parameters: how cause and effect function, what can or cannot happen. If Araya’s created space is separated even from those laws, it means his world is a fully independent universe, where only his will determines the rules.
A good example of this is when he literally erases Enjou from existence, a god-like power:
The Magus swung his arm.
The body in the form of Enjou Tomoe was completely annihilated with that one swing.
It was shattered into pieces, not even the head remained. As if it had been that way from the beginning, in the same way the Magus had said it, worthless, it turned into dust and disappeared into the void. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
Araya further states that this world is meant to represent the Taiji and can contain entities aligned with it like Ryougi Shiki:
“Wait Araya. I have one question. The original purpose of this apartment complex is to represent the Taiji in order to take in the Taiji, wasn’t it?”
“Indeed. I created this alien world to completely cut off Ryougi Shiki from the outside world. The other various functions are just accessories.” - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
Now what is the Taiji? It is an ancient Chinese philosophical concept. The Taiji symbolizes the balance between opposites: light and dark, male and female, day and night. It represents the totality of existence: everything that is and everything that isn’t.
Taiji [Others]
A philosophy originated in ancient China, a graphical representation of the Yin-Yang theory. It attempts to capture the essence of everything on a conceptual level: those that are active are defined as Yang (white), and the opposite are defined as Yin (black).
The Taiji symbolizes opposing concepts such as day and night, light and darkness, male and female. At the same time, you may also call it a condensed version of the ever-changing, dynamic World.
Furthermore, there is a dot of Yin in Yang, and conversely a dot of Yang in Yin. This indicates that the distinction between Yin and Yang is not absolute. There is darkness even in light.
Taiji is the "one" at the beginning, the Yin and Yang that divide the "one" are called Liangyi (Ryougi). - Kara no Kyoukai Special Pamphlet - Encyclopedia: Taiji
In this space, Shiki, who embodies both yin and yang, is trapped in a domain that represents Araya’s control over balance/the Taiji. This space is akin to an artificial manifestation of Araya’s inner landscape:
A temple of Taiji. It could be called the artificial manifestation of the inner landscape of Araya Souren, who did not have a Reality Marble. - Garden of sinners Pamphlet: Kara no Kyoukai Settings Glossary
The key to understanding Araya's True Magic is realizing that his world has no inherent laws of its own. Since it is isolated from the laws of the external world, it is essentially a void: a space of nothingness. But, paradoxically, this emptiness allows Araya to shape it however he desires with no limit.
Araya further explains the purpose of this void:
“There is no need for concern. I have not imprisoned her in a room within the apartment complex. I have thrown her into Mugen, the infinite void, that connects the material world to the otherworld.
The primary purpose of this distorted alien world was to create a closed loop. By no means, no matter the method or the impact, could one escape from the darkness of Mugen. Even if Ryougi Shiki were to awaken, there is nothing she could do. Monitoring her is unnecessary. Besides, given her injuries, even standing would be difficult. Even if she wakes, her body will be incapable of moving properly.” - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
“Sure, you didn’t make a mistake. For you as a Magus, this is the best solution. But, what if the assumption itself is a mistake? You isolated Shiki? Not in a room somewhere in this apartment complex, but you isolated her in this apartment complex itself? A Bounded Field that achieves spacial isolation is already on the level of Magic. It’s a miracle that only a Bounded Field expert like you could create.
“Those who are trapped by the sealed space of a Mobius Ring can never get out from the inside. A closed world that’s enclosed by walls can’t be destroyed by physical impacts, it’s a cage that’s impossible to escape from. You slapped Shiki in there, which gave you peace of mind. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
No weapon could interfere with a sealed world where the space was chained together infinitely with no exit. Because it had no shape, physical weapons that can only interact with physical objects couldn’t clash with it. But, Ryougi Shiki’s power was precisely one that targeted such formless things. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
Mugen, the infinite void, was designed to trap Shiki in a space where both time and space reset themselves endlessly, no matter what happens. This space has no end or exit, and cannot be destroyed by physical means. However, the void's "infinity" doesn't merely refer to its size; it's infinite in existence: it is a loop that always resets itself, no matter the method or event.
This concept of infinity is what makes it unbreakable, which only Ryougi Shiki's unique variation of MEoDP can target due to stemming from " ", which is beyond all definitions, including infinity:
He had sufficient awareness to understand how she escaped the imprisoned space. Last night, the young lady had lost consciousness after several of her ribs were shattered by the Magus’s blow.
She had just recently awakened within the closed space, in the boundary set between the walls of the apartment complex. Within that impossible space she slashed through the impossible wall.
Infinity is not 「 」. For infinity to remain infinite, the finite has to be defined. Without the finite there cannot exist infinity. Because things have an end, we can observe the thing called infinity.
Ryougi Shiki had been cast into infinity, she saw the impossible finite and cut through it.
Of course, there is no finite inside of the infinite. You can’t slash through what doesn’t exist, so escape from such a cage is impossible. But, if there is no finite then there is no infinite. Whether finite walls exist or not, an endless world holds no meaning before Ryougi Shiki.
If there really is no finite, then it’s not infinite but 「 」. If the finite can be comprehended, Shiki could detect and slash through it.
... The black hole that should have been absolute was just a small dark room to his opponent. The Magus felt ashamed of himself. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5 Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
In simpler terms, for infinity to hold meaning, there must be something finite to compare it to. Without that, the concept of infinity collapses, and Shiki, by slashing through that contradiction, escapes Araya’s void. The concept of " " cannot be defined in any way, as it is perfect and whole, which allows Shiki to erase anything with a defined existence, anything that can be given meaning or described, even infinity:
The swirl of the Root is a "place" where all causalities interlace, where all things are in potential, and therefore where nothing is whatsoever. — Kara no Kyoukai Epilogue
So, now we have established two key points:
- Araya possesses True Magic.
- Araya's True Magic revolves around creating an isolated universe of nothingness that paradoxically contains infinite possibilities, granting him complete control over that universe.
But why is this linked to the First Magic specifically? Well, the most telling description of the First Magic comes from, unsurprisingly, the Kara no Kyoukai guidebook:
Ether Lump
Ether, the Fifth Imaginary Substance as coined by the Association. It is a necessary medium that gives shape by mixing with the Four Elements.
It is shapeless, but it is a critical element in the functioning of magecraft.
Ether is bound to become one of Earth, Water, Fire and Wind, but in the hands of a novice, it would fail to become one of the Four Elements and materialize. This is ether lump.
Ether lump is completely useless. In some sense, creating ether lump is analogous to creating “Nothingness.” Looking at it from this perspective makes it sound like “True Magic” In fact, ether lump is originally the First Magic’s———
Garden of sinners Pamphlet: Kara no Kyoukai Settings Glossary
The First is directly linked to "creating Nothingness." Sounds familiar? Yes, it’s exactly what Araya’s spatial isolation accomplishes. The source draws a parallel with Ether, the formless substance from which the four classical elements manifest. If someone fails to materialize properly, the result is an Ether Lump—a “nothing” that still holds potential to become one of the four elements if wielded correctly. By refining the nature of this Ether Lump, one can create not just failed pseudo-elements, but an actual empty world with no fixed laws. Paradoxically, this absence of law is what enables someone to mold any reality or law they desire, precisely what Araya achieves.
Stillness, Araya’s Origin, is the power to stop everything: to pause the universe, leaving only the user active. When all else, including the fundamental laws of the universe, is stopped, Araya gains the ability to alter the “data” or fundamental properties of everything, like an editor rewriting a document.
This is the core of Araya’s power and the key to his manipulation of reality. It brings Death, or indeed Nothingness, into being, halting existence and allowing its redefinition by operating from the absolute void, which acts as both the beginning and the end of all phenomena.
You want even more evidence? Well, Araya's internal world is literally stated to be a pathway to Akasha:
But, how? Even if you don't set out a magical ward to testify that you aren't a mage, you can't fool the will of the dominant race. The only ones you can fool by using a technological ward are other mages. If you use this building a path will definitely open. Since its the realization of the Taeguekdo, a hole would certainly appear - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
And remember, Araya's complex is merely a substitute for a reality marble. It is a manifestation of his internal world: the very reason why the two are indistinguishable. He could treat the complex as if it were part of his body, exerting total control over it:
Even though Touko herself had said it, she had failed to understand the meaning to the very end.
This apartment complex was Araya Souren himself. The walls, the floors, common sense regarding buildings did not apply to Araya. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
He could exist in any location within the apartment complex and could manipulate any space within at will. This place was an alien world that embodied Araya Souren. Within the confines of this property, he could instantaneously teleport anywhere. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
In conclusion, Araya mastered his Origin to such a degree that it became a direct pathway to " ", allowing him to "pause" reality itself and shape it according to his will. This power, the creation of reality from nothing, is exactly what the First Magic embodies: the divine power of creation out of nothing.
Addressing potential counter arguments:
Now, I will address the main issue some bring up: "why did Araya struggle with reaching Akasha due to the Counterforce then, if he achieved True Magic? And why did he say that he 'lacked the talent to reach Akasha'?"
Simple: Araya's goal is this:
It has been a story from the distant past. Human beings can’t be saved. As long as they live, there will inevitably be those who remain unrewarded. Not all human beings can find happiness. Then, what is a human being who was not saved? What will be the reward for their lives?
There is no answer. It’s equal to infinite and finite. If no one is saved, then no one can attain salvation. If so, salvation is no different from a gold coin endlessly passing hands.
Human beings can’t be saved. There’s no salvation in the world.
That’s why I decided to record death. To record the end to everything, to record the end of the world, to examine everything from beginning to end. By doing so, perhaps I could distinguish what happiness truly was. If it were possible to reevaluate everything, from those who were unrewarded to those who were not saved, then perhaps I could determine what could be referred to as happiness. If the meaning of humanity’s happiness could be understood, then after the world ends all those who died meaninglessly could be granted meaning in the end. Therefore, when the world reaches its conclusion, people would finally be able to measure the value of human beings.
That alone, is the one and only universal salvation. “You’ve forgotten your reason? Your hopes are empty, and even your beginning point is zero. So then, what exactly are you?”
“I’m nobody. I just want a conclusion. These ugly, dirty, filthy, ignorant humans. If that’s all that’ll be left in history after they die off, it could be concluded that the value of humans is in their ugliness. I would be relieved to know that an ugly and hopeless existence is what makes us human.” “And that’s why you want to touch the Swirl of the Root? Everything is recorded over there. Even if it weren’t, you could reduce everything to nothingness. You want to eliminate all the filthy humans for your sake.” - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
Araya wanted to end reality and analyze it to find some form of universal meaning to it. To him, it is only in death, when everything has "stopped" that he can find purpose and analyze properly the value of something.
However, Araya's True Magic was not enough to achieve this. His True Magic allows him to pause reality within a specific space, creating an isolated world under his control. But that wasn’t his ultimate goal: he wanted to end all of reality, to observe it in its entirety. To do that, he needed access to Akasha itself.
Here lies the issue: Araya could create isolated universes, but he couldn’t fully overwrite or transcend the external world. To access Akasha in its totality, he needed to bypass the boundaries of his own magic. This was where the Counterforce (and the world's will to protect itself) came in:
But, how? Even if you don't set out a magical ward to testify that you aren't a mage, you can't fool the will of the dominant race. The only ones you can fool by using a technological ward are other mages. If you use this building a path will definitely open. Since its the realization of the Taeguekdo, a hole would certainly appear. But the first thing to come out of that hole will be a Counter Guardian. As long as we are who we are, there is no way we can stand up to that." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5 But, how? Even if you don't set out a magical ward to testify that you aren't a mage, you can't fool the will of the dominant race. The only ones you can fool by using a technological ward are other mages. If you use this building a path will definitely open. Since its the realization of the Taeguekdo, a hole would certainly appear. But the first thing to come out of that hole will be a Counter Guardian. As long as we are who we are, there is no way we can stand up to that." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
Imagine having a perfectly secure house, but to leave, you need to open the door. Just for a moment, the entire house becomes vulnerable. That’s Araya’s problem: trying to access Akasha creates an opening that the world’s defenses (such as the Counter Guardians) can exploit, disrupting his control.
This is where Ryougi Shiki comes in. Her origin is Void Shiki, directly connected to Akasha. Unlike Araya, she doesn’t need to open a “hole” to access it: she is a direct link to it. In other words, she can bypass all the barriers Araya faces and directly connect to Akasha.
Araya’s plan, then, was to bring Ryougi into his isolated world, using her body as a conduit to access Akasha without the risk of losing control of his power. With her unique connection to Void Shiki, Ryougi could reach Akasha without needing to open a path that the Counterforce could exploit.
When Araya says he "lacks the talent to reach Akasha," he refers to his inability to transcend reality without external interference. While his True Magic allows him to control isolated worlds, it doesn’t grant him direct access to Akasha. His power can create a pathway, opening a "hole" into Akasha, but its true function is to freeze and manipulate the existing world. It doesn't inherently enable him to cross into Akasha, as that realm is beyond reality's manipulation: there is no reality to shape there in the first place.
In contrast, Ryougi Shiki doesn’t need a pathway to access Akasha: she is the pathway. Her bond to Void Shiki allows her to transcend reality in ways Araya cannot. This is the essence of his "lack of talent": although Araya can create isolated universes, he cannot access Akasha as Ryougi can, without leaving the confines of his controlled domain.
------
Another point of contention could be this: "but the user of the First is said to have died long, long ago. So how can it be Araya?"
But there is a source in particular that sheds light into this:
"Why they’re still called the five magicians comes down to perspective. It’s about whether you count the dead as having ceased to exist or whether you see them as 'alive' in some way, as long as some trace of them persists." – Tsukihime Plus Period – Magic [Term]
Now, this is much different. Some traces of the First Magician still exist, even after their physical death. And that is actually perfectly aligned with Araya's own existence:
The mage's discourse continues. "As a reference, I do not die. My origin is 'suspension'. Someone who has woken to their origin becomes ruled by that origin itself. Someone who has already stopped - how can you kill him?" Shiki doesn't reply. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
Araya’s origin is "suspension," meaning he has transcended the normal cycle of life and death. He is "already stopped," not in the sense of being a lifeless corpse, but in a way that he cannot truly die because no ordinary concept, not even the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception, can apply to him. They can destroy his physical body, but his existence, as a concept, will always endure.
Even when he ran out of bodies, both him and Touko still said he will eventually return:
“This body is at its limit.”
“Starting over again? How many times has it been? You never learn.”
That was the spiral. Araya’s sour look didn’t break down until the very end. Touko had a clear look of disdain aimed towards him; she threw away the cigarette she had pinched between her fingers. In the end, she had lit the cigarette but hadn’t brought it to her mouth even once. Though she had disdain for him, she did not hate this Magus, who had become more of a concept. If she had made one wrong step. No, if she had not made a wrong step she surely would have ended up like this too. Neither a human nor a living being, but merely the embodiment of a theory resulting in a phenomenon. Now that she thought that, it was sad.
“Gaha”, Araya vomited blood. The body, starting from the left side had begun to disappear and turn to ashes. “I didn’t make any spare bodies. If we are to meet again, it will be in the next generation.”
“There will be no such thing as a Magus by then. There won’t be a reunion. You will be alone in the end. Even so, you won’t stop?”
“Of course, I won’t accept defeat." - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
Touko, with a sense of disdain, recognizes that Araya has become something beyond human. He's no longer simply a living being, but an embodiment of an idea, a phenomenon. He represents a concept that cannot be fully destroyed. So, Araya’s "death" is not a typical death. His soul persists, existing as a concept. While his body may decompose and be replaced, Araya himself continues to exist through the ages, even if in a different form.
There’s another layer to Araya’s age that complicates his identity. There is a very common misconception that Araya is only about 200 years old, as that's what he claims when Shiki stabbed him:
"I realise that spot is my weakness. But just that is not enough. Even if it's the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception, you cannot instantly kill this two hundred year old life of mine. This body will die one day, but I was prepared for this happening. It's quite fitting that the price I pay for capturing Ryougi is my death. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
This suggests that Araya’s current body is relatively recent. However, there are additional details that hint at a much older history. For instance, later in Kara no Kyoukai, Araya describes ancient, primal times before weapons were even invented:
"What came to mind was only a vast, burned wasteland. No matter how many steps I took, there were only endless corpses. The gravel spread along the riverbank was not stone but fragments of bone. The stench of death carried by the wind sought to fill all of existence; never ceasing. It was an age of conflict. A time before weapons were invented, where those who lived only today would fight with their own hands." - Kara no Kyoukai, Chapter 5
"Wherever I went, there was conflict, and the bodies of the dead were, without exception, discarded in cruel abandon. The weak in villages were commonly slaughtered by flocks of strong humans. It didn’t matter who killed whom. On the battlefield, good and evil held no meaning. All that mattered was how many had died and how many could not be saved." - Kara no Kyoukai, Chapter 5
"Therefore, the way that Araya had to eliminate Touko was to engage her in hand-to-hand combat after closing the distance. Araya was a man who had survived turbulent times. In terms of fighting with his body as a weapon, someone from the modern era couldn’t hope to oppose him." - Kara no Kyoukai, Chapter 5
This era described, one devoid of modern weapons, implies that Araya’s existence spans back far beyond 200 years (where we already had weapons). His soul witnessed the dawn of humanity and its violent nature.
The novel also reveals that Araya had previous bodies before the current one, but those bodies eventually aged to dust while his soul persisted unchanged:
The time was near. It had been half a day since he moved from the body he had been using up to yesterday to his current spare body. Finally, his consciousness felt like it had spread to every corner of this body.
Araya Souren was not like some Puppeteer who had died after preparing a completely identical copy. He still had not experienced death. His body had rotted away several times over the years, each time this happened he maintained his consciousness and so far continued to live on. Araya Souren was only one person. If this body perished, there would be no refuge next time. Things had to be handled carefully. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
The combined efforts of Ryougi Shiki and Aozaki Touko had completely destroyed the body he had been using up to this point. The body that was now active was just a spare he had prepared. It would take time for him to fully adapt to it. Even though he would soon transfer to the body of Ryougi Shiki, any misstep with this body he was not used to could lead to irreparable failure. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
So, when Araya says “this 200 years old lifespan of mine,” he is referring specifically to his current body; the one Shiki stabbed. He immediately follows with, “This body will die one day, but I was prepared for this happening. It’s quite fitting that the price I pay for capturing Ryougi is my death.”
As a being, Araya himself is far older, originating from an era when humanity was still primal. His soul has endured through countless decaying bodies, witnessing firsthand the evolution of human violence across millennia.
So, how does this tie into the idea that the user of the First Magic died "long, long ago"?
Araya, despite his physical death, is more than a mere mage: he is an enduring concept, much like the First Magician. His soul has persisted for centuries, embodying a phenomenon rather than a singular person. This is why his death doesn’t fully erase him: even after the death of his current body, Araya's influence continues. His true nature aligns with the idea that even if the physical body of the First Magician perished, traces of their existence still persist.
Araya is not just a man; he is the embodiment of a concept that lives on through time, undying in essence. His soul has transcended the typical constraints of life and death, perfectly aligning with the idea of having "died long, long ago" yet "persisting in some trace."
Addressing the Yumina situation and why it doesn't hold up compared to Araya Souren:
At this point, we've seen that Araya Souren is the true wielder of the First Magic without a shadow of doubt. The idea that witches established it instead, primarily comes from Grand Order and other Fate series. However, these series draw on MF lore for Kara no Kyoukai, which, as mentioned in the interview posted at the beginning of this thread, is a completely different version of the story compared to the original novel. It does not reflect the true intentions of the original work, but rather continues down a different path initiated by the anime.
Therefore, we cannot claim that this was the original intent all along. Not only were the Kara no Kyoukai light novels written long before Fate, but Nasu himself has stated that his older self, who wrote those novels, "has passed on." We can’t even be sure if he recalls all the details of the story. This is especially evident when MF directly contradicts the characterizations of Shiki and Mikiya.
Even in Witch of the Holy Night itself, I don't recall any explicit connection between witches and the First. Even Nasu's comment doesn't outright prove it:
The last witch, heir to a system of Magecraft unlike any other within the fiction of Type Moon. To her, the distinction between Magecraft and Magic is almost meaningless. Even making a world is within her ability. But then again, what is a witch?
Alice's magecraft is unique and blurs the line between magecraft and magic, however, it is still defined as a magecraft system. Nasu also mentions "creating a world" as something impressive. But doesn't that remind you of something? Yes: It's something Araya already did to a more fundamental level.
And this brings me to my next point: Araya has better feats than Yumina to begin with.
let's take a look at Flat Snark:
"Flat Snark’s power is its ability to bring fairy-tale worlds to life... Flat Snark was the type of Ploy that deployed Bounded Fields. They’re all impossible in the first place, so they don’t play nice with the laws of physics. That shouldn't come as a surprise, since fantasy and reality can’t exist together." — Mahoutsukai no Yoru Chapter 5
So Flat Snark’s "great power" is based on Bounded Fields? This is already suspicious. Anyways, these Bounded Fields replace the natural order with laws based on fairy tale logic. While this is powerful and impressive, it only alters the laws of physics, rather than outright replacing them. Moreover, these alterations still follow a set of rules that Flat Snark must abide by. For example, modern objects take longer to convert, and he can't alter his creations to work under entirely different rules. He remains bound to a particular logic, just one that differs from the natural laws of the world.
Here is the thing: this is something Araya'sbasebounded field already did:
Touko had already seen through the fact that Araya had constructed three Bounded Fields arrayed around himself.
Fugu, Kongou, Dakatsu, Taiten, Chiyougiyou, Ouken.
Threads of the Magus’s web stretched across the ground and space, between planes and dimensions.
Any living thing, touching those circular lines would would have its power stopped.
... Normally, a Bounded Field was a stationary construct; a boundary that protected something immovable. Instead the enemy was performing something monstrous, carrying them with him; centered around himself as he moved. For that reason they were visible but gave off no detectable presence. In close-quarters combat, Araya Souren could be said to be invincible. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
Araya’s Bounded Fields stretch across planes and dimensions, which means they affect every layer of reality: the physical, the mental, and the conceptual. His fields don’t just stop things; they outright suspend the laws of reality to reflect his view of death as the only constant. This is similar to what Flat Snark does, though with a different thematic focus (suspension and inertia vs. fairy tale logic).
However, it’s only when Araya disconnected from space that his Origin explicitly reached the level of True Magic. Why is this the case? As we’ve seen, Araya’s spatial isolation separates him from the laws of physics, rather than simply editing them. This is the fundamental trait of True Magic: it breaks the rules, whereas Magecraft only manipulates them.
Flat Snark and Araya’s normal Bounded Fields both manipulate the laws of the world to reflect their internal worlds. However, Araya’s spatial isolation rejects the laws of the world entirely, leaving a blank reality that he can shape with absolute freedom. He is not bound by any particular logic, allowing him the freedom to impose his will upon it.
This is the context in which Alice “creates a world.” While she does indeed create a different world, it is not a fully independent world like Araya’s spatial isolation. Alice’s advanced Magecraft system is comparable to Araya’s Origin-enhanced Bounded Fields, but she has no evidence suggesting she can achieve the miracle Araya performed with his apartment complex.
Thus, not only the statements favoring the witches stem from a period when Nasu had already shifted his direction with Kara no Kyoukai, but a direct comparison of their feats reveals that Flat Snark is on the same level as Araya’s regular Bounded Fields, with Araya’s apartment complex/spatial isolation far surpassing them in power.
At this point, there are two possibilities:
- Yumina is actually a fraud, and Nasu either forgot or retconned Araya’s connection to the First Magic.
- Yumina founded the "official" version of the First Magic, while Araya achieved it through his unique pathway with his Origin of Stillness.
I personally believe the first option is more likely, especially given that interview from Nasu. Though the second one allows you to reconcile everything together still (ignoring how GO's very depiction of KnK is at odds with the LNs, that is).
Anyways, Yumina and the Witches having the First Magic is clearly at odds with Araya's bounded fields explicitly reaching it already, with Flat Snark being blatantly a subset user of Araya's own powers, lmao. And knowing GO, if it reveals how the First Magic functions, it'll likely contradict the original version like the following two I'm about to discuss, which will be much quicker.
Contradiction 7: Second Magic changed
The Second Magic originally was the superordinate control over time, being able to do things from basic time travel and time reversal, to wiping out entire timelines with a mere gesture, retroactively making things true or false based on if he personally acknowledges them or not, and completely rewriting the events of history down to the traits, specialities, appearance, and abilities of people:
“Observer. Or, Character Creation”
The space was a completed world.
Jet black with points of light.
In the center of a room in the wide, perfect sphere dyed in the color of the night sky, there
floated a wooden chair.
Based on its appearance alone, it would be enough to call the chair extravagant, but its wood
gave it a refined hue, and one would not think it a repulsive gaud of the elite. Rather, just by
existing here, it imbued the space around it with a conspicuous gravity.
If an unrefined person sat in the chair, that person would likely be consumed by the weight
of the chair’s existence and hidden from surrounding view. Such was the significance of the chair.
The space had been prepared for the sole purpose of exhibiting the chair.
A man exuding a solemnity that outweighed that of the chair leaned back in it, emitting a
loud creak.
“Hm...”
If one were to draw a reduced map of the universe based on this room, the man sitting in the
chair would be at its center, emitting an air surely befitting its master.
His external appearance would probably place his age in the 50s or 60s.
One could sense the trials of his life in the wrinkles etched deeply on his face, but his eyes
remained brimming with brilliance, such as one might see in someone ten years his junior.
“This axis is wrong... these lines will be annihilated too...”
When the man slipped his finger into the sky, the heavenly bodies displayed on the sur-
rounding walls began to revolve.
“Oh, this cut-off isn’t so... no, it’s the worst. That damned giant spider will wake up. It’s a
century too early to face that.”
Then, as if to match his words, the pages in the book hovering in front of the man turned
with a flutter, inscribing multifarious information in real-time.
The thickness of the book was about that of a standard encyclopedia.
Regardless, as the man guided his finger through the air, thousands— tens of thousands of
pages were born and erased.
After continuing this activity again and again, the old man muttered as if in boredom.
“As I thought, no matter how this is resolved, it doesn’t result in a satisfactory outcome for
the Association. Having said that, there isn’t enough reason for my interventions.
- Fate/Strange Fake: Volume 1 - Chapter 1, Page 98
As for the question of how long the telephone had been there, there shouldn’t have been
anything in that space until several minutes prior. But, the telephone was wonderfully integrated
with the harmony of the room, as if it had always existed there.
Indeed, addressing the phone had confirmed the fact of its existence, as if the history of the
room had been rewritten. - Fate/Strange Fake: Volume 1 - Chapter 1, Page 99
At the same time, the heavenly bodies revolving around the room — and the book that the
old man was reading — began turning faster than they had been before.
Inscribed on the pages was the face of a human, and that person’s information.
At times, it was male. At times, it was female.
At times, it was elderly. At times, it was a child.
At times, it was musclebound. At times, it was obese.
At times, it was a saint. At times, it was a vicious murderer.
At times, it was a magus. At times, it was a priest.
Flipping between countless qualities such as race, gender, age, body type, clothing, personality, and occupation, the book’s pages turned with incredible momentum.
“You’re quite confident in the turning of the planets.”
“The trajectory to the future is like a labyrinth. It’s my specialty.”
Someone passing by the two at this moment would likely have found it a bizarre conversation.
“Of course, unlike my labyrinth, the destination one makes depends upon the person.”
The pages kept turning at a high speed, and the displayed faces smoothly blended into each
other.
As if he was watching a scene from times past, the old man sat back and watched as the tele-
phone continued to turn its own dial.
Then, after some time, the turning of the pages slowed.
Inscribed on one page was an Eastern person.
“Next is to... yes, she needs some glasses.”
The pages turned delicately. A thin-framed pair of glasses appeared on the person’s face.
“...Is that important?”
“Who knows? I’m just back-calculating from the result I arrived at. Whether or not it has
any meaning at all is something we can consider later.”
“Hmph.” - Fate/Strange Fake: Volume 1 - Chapter 1, Page 100
And all of this is a Post-Prime Zelretch that cannot use the Second Magic to the same level as he used to back when he fought Type-Moon:
However, he has aged considerably since then, and it seems he can no longer use his magic like he did in his prime. - Fate/Side Material
According to the new Tsukihime Remake guidebook, however, the Second Magic is only capable of travelling to different parallel worlds and nothing more, with it being so pathetic that it's hyped for being able to inadvertently preform limited time travel via causing time lag when the user hops to another timeline:
The Second Magic concerns the attestation and application of parallel worlds.
By making it possible to travel to parallel worlds, he proved that there is still room for the world to develop in alternate ways.
Thanks to this, the world’s lifespan has been extended. Even if our history fails, and we destroy ourselves, there might still be others of us out there—this concept granted hope to the planet, which had been in the process of losing its dreams.
Zelretch’s method for travelling through parallel words is a simple one—he transfers himself to a jewel in a different temporal axis.
For example: if he wants to transfer from World A to World B, he will gather jewels in World B until they gather up enough to take Zelretch’s shape, and then Zelretch’s soul will transfer over. In an instant, the jewel golem transforms into Zelretch. At that point, the Zelretch in World A will turn back into its original form as a pile of jewels.
As long as minerals and jewels exist there, he can travel into any world he wishes, but as he only has a single soul, he cannot be active in all of them at once.
He originally travelled with just his physical body, but because of various circumstances he eventually settled for this method as it was the easiest.
In addition, as a small amount of time lag occurs when he travels, he is also capable of a tiny bit of time travel as well. - Katatuki Kouhon
Needless to say, this is a massive contradiction to the descriptions of the Second Magic in Mahoyo and the feats of it in Strange Fake even.
Contradiction 8: Fifth Magic changed
In Mahoyo, it's explicitly stated that time travel of any kind can't be the Fifth Magic's true nature, as things related to time fall under the operation of the Second Magic, meaning its time manipulation is just a side effect that is subordinate to its true nature:
The Fifth Magic fundamentally represents Entropy: the inevitable process of decay, transformation, and the universe’s gradual return to disorder. Its primary focus is on this broader concept of change rather than direct manipulation of time.
This is highlighted by Aoko's victory over the universe in a reality warping contest, where she breaks its order, demonstrating mastery over entropy rather than simple temporal control. Her restraint in using this power stems from a desire to delay the end rather than an inability to command it.
But in Fate/GO, Alice says that the Fifth Magic's nature is "deceiving time", which is just a pretentious way of saying time manipulation:
This simplification directly contradicts the original Mahoyo lore. By equating her abilities to “cheating” or tricking time, Fate/Grand Order overlooks the complex philosophical and cosmic significance of entropy and the true scope of Aoko’s power.
If anyone argues that Aoko’s changing outcomes means she is indeed “deceiving time,” and thus FGO is correct, that misunderstands her power fundamentally. Aoko does not trick or manipulate time in a limited sense; she outright decides how events unfold, or if they unfold at all. This is not simple time control but complete mastery over change and transformation itself. Such power, if used recklessly, could annihilate the universe instantly.
This is emphasized by her victory over the universe in their reality warping contest, where the universe acknowledged that “order has fallen”, meaning the very laws and structure of reality were overridden and replaced by Aoko’s will.
In short, she does not deceive or control time strictly, that domain belongs to the Second Magic and is secondary to the Fifth. Instead, Aoko commands the universe’s fundamental processes, determining if, when, and how events occur. This distinction is crucial for understanding the Fifth Magic’s true nature and separating it from simplistic time manipulation claims.
So yeah, as expected of GO, a complete contradiction to the source material.
Contradiction 9: Extra and Extella are incompatible
There are many contradictions to these series. Too many to send scans for. From Base Gilgamesh being above the Origin Servants in Extella, despite that not remotely being the case for CCC, to Hakuno knowing all four Servants, to the Moon Cell's entire goals being different, etc.
The main ones I want to bring up though are the Moon Cell's goals.
In Extra, Twice is the one who created the Holy Grail War to bring out the complete potential of humans:
The Moon Cell was also going to delete Hakuno for being irregular data once she reached the core:
However, in Extella, the Moon Cell created the Holy Grail War to bestow a regalia to the strongest master and Servant so they could defend it against the Umbral Star, as the Moon Cell cannot defend itself:
This is in direct contradiction to Extra, where the Moon Cell can defend itself and can summon an avatar (essentially akin to a Type somewhat) to fight for it:
The only reason Hakuno and her Servants defeat it here is because it's just an aspect of its full self meant to deal out punishment for a relatively minor situation, with it sending a brick with stats not high enough to win, simply because it underestimated Hakuno and her respective Servant in each route.
Hell, there was a rewritten short story of Fate/Extra called Extella Zero to fit the Extella games due to how much it contradicts Extra, which you can find > here < and > here. <
Now, one may say that the examples I've shown scans of are only enough to say that Extella is a different set of timelines from Extra, as opposed to being a completely incompatible canon. Well, as we know, Extella is what introduced the whole timeline rectons in the first place, but not only that, we have another beloved origin recton.
In Extella, it states that Nero with the Mythologic Mystic Code, which is the pseudo-origin awakening used to fight BB in CCC. And in Extella, Hakuno states that it is far too weak to fight Altera, with her and the Umbral Star being on an entirely different level:
However, BASE Gilgamesh stomps Altera and is hyped to be able to fight her as the White Titan:
This is absurd, as Gilgamesh needed the Mythology Mystic Code to fight BB like everyone else. If his base self was far above these same Servants that defeated BB, there would've been no need for him to obtain such a thing for himself like the rest of them. And this would likewise make his actual origin of a far higher level in the in-verse hierarchy (not in feats) compared to CCC. And as we know, origins are abstract forces outside of creation, so timeline splits cannot alter them.
"But CCC is in Fate/GO" you may shout. But oh no, you see, Extella has its own version of CCC. There is no Extella CCC game, but CCC is mentioned in Extella, with Hakuno and Nero mentioning the Mythology Mystic Code, Tamamo remember vaguely fighting Elizabeth Bathory, Gilgamesh knowing Hakuno, etc. Of course, this is a massively altered version, as Hakuno only had one Servant per timeline in the original CCC, just like in Extra, but the fact of the matter is an altered version of CCC blatantly exist in Extella, which is logically the one Fate/GO uses, as it uses Extella's lore, such as Quantum Timelocks, the White Titan, etc.
Side contradiction: An early outlier recton/canon split of KnK
I will try to make this as short as possible, as opposed to going into it in detail, as it'd be obscenely long. This is not part of the post Fate/GO and Extella major canon split, but a strange isolated canon contradiction much earlier on that later becomes part of the Modern Type-Moon canon. That being that Mirai Fukuin contradicts the core characterization of the main cast, completely destroys its messages, and overall just makes no sense.
But don't take my word for it, take Nasu's if you wish, who admits that the version of him who wrote KnK he considers to be a different person that is now dead, with Mirai Fukuin contradicting the entire point of the original KnK, with him saying that reviving KnK after its "perfect ending" would result in a "Frankenstein", aka an abomination. He only went through with it in spite of this because of his "bond" with the series:
The actual writing of Kara no Kyoukai is a pretty embarrassing memory for me—suffice it to say it is a work that represents my true self at the time. I wrote it at a time when I felt I could take on the world armed only with my words, and I realized [through this movie] that the farther removed it became from the written medium, the more distant it became from what I was actually trying to express. So as successful as it was, it was on a different path than what my past self was trying to take with it, and it just didn't match up. Yet in seeing up through the fourth chapter, I came to realize that although I was on a different path then, it doesn't mean that I didn't leave some pretty good things behind. As the movie versions have allowed me such realizations, I was again reminded of the real value of Kara no Kyoukai. My heartfelt gratitude towards that period of time has been thus manifested into Future Gospel.
> —So the driving force behind Future Gospel was that feeling of gratitude of yours.
> Nasu: When I wrote Kara no Kyoukai, I felt resistance towards so many things—society, entertainment, culture—and it was my motivation to write the story. Now, I am thrilled to be writing from a place of gratitude, though with just a touch of sadness. It feels like the old Nasu Kinoko has passed on. I suppose you could say I've gone under a heavy detox, and feel much more virtuous now (laughs).
> —Though Future Gospel is a collaboration with Mr. Takeuchi, who had the initial plan for the book?
> Nasu: The proposal first came from Takashi, actually. At one point he suddenly said "Let's make a new Kara no Kyoukai doujinshi for the Summer Comiket!". I was like, "Where the hell did that come from?" To force myself to bring something back that I felt ended so beautifully would feel like trying to revive a real person. And even if it worked, it would become something like a proverbial Frankenstein. I painstakingly put my heart into this work... yet even as I say that, my unflinching bond to the work gave me some curiosity towards something so rash.
> —What kind of work was this, which carried such appreciation to the theatrical release staff?
> Nasu: Figuring out the plot was a rather troublesome task. Outside of Future Gospel, had it been nothing more than an additional short story, it would have been something that simply negated what Kara no Kyoukai was, and gone against both my former self and the fans that loved the work. Future Gospel was originally meant to be an episode related to "Precognition", which was removed from Kara no Kyoukai while I was writing it. If I had written it as the final scene for Ryougi Shiki, it could have had some real merit in the original work. When I realized that, I gave myself permission to write it out, and I was able to put it to life on paper. The writing itself came and went in a flash, but the plot does take up a considerable amount of time. - Kara no Kyoukai Movie - Nasu Kinoko Interview
Notice that Nasu also admits that the more Kara no Kyoukai moved away from the written/novel/manga version, the more it diverged from the original intent of the story, meaning the anime adaption is also not an accurate depiction of the original novel. In fact, it's more logical to say Mirai Fukuin is canon to the anime version of Kara no Kyoukai.
So, what are the actual contradictions of MF?
Well, my explanations will be brief. For a full breakdown of the contradictions, my friend's thread > here < goes into far more detail.
So, to start, Ryougi in MF somehow has gone back to her family and became the head of it, despite her not wanting anything to do with them for the entirety of KnK. It goes against KnK where both her and Mikiya will easily go against the wishes of their family for each other, with Shiki not even liking her family and them not being kind in the first place.
Then of course, there is shitting out a child with Mikiya. This is completely contradictory to Ryougi and Mikiya's character.
Ryougi is someone who hates humanity due to knowing their true nature and stays in isolation from them:
(The manga explanations are abridged versions of the novel that go into more detail, but it's easier for me to grab ones from the manga.)
The only person Shiki cared about is Mikiya, who is repeatedly stated to be an extreme outlier.
And as I've mentioned earlier on in this thread, Shiki's innate desires via her origin are to end all things, only resisting this because she desires more to live a quiet life with Mikiya. But that's it. She resists her origin, she doesn't go the opposite direction of it. Having a child unnecessarily goes in the opposite direction of her origin, as it's creating life, meaning she'd have extreme disdain for it, on top of her hating humans and not wanting to create anymore, and not wanting to bring more sentient beings into a terrible world against their will.
Mikiya as well denies Void's offer to grant him almost any wish, as he is completely satisfied with what he has now:
—I shall be going soon. So tell me, Kokutou. Do you really not wish for anything? Even when you confronted Shirazumi Lio you chose neutrality. Even though it left you on the border of death.
—To me that seems mysterious. Though quite apt for you, I suppose. But don't you want a tomorrow that's more enjoyable than today?
He answered.
—No. I don't. I'm happy as it is. This, I think, is enough for me. - Kara no Kyoukai Epilogue
Perhaps one will argue that Mikiya doesn't want anything now, but does in the future, but that clearly goes against what the narrative is establishing here. And if Mikiya wanted something in the future, he would've asked Void to ensure it to happen.
Furthermore, Mana is shown to be a degenerate incestuous freak akin to Azaka, who is consistently trying to undermine Ryougi and Mikiya's relationship to get Mikiya for herself. Not only does this not serve any narrative point, but it destroys the peace Ryougi and Mikiya were striving for and finally obtained at the end of KnK, which further coincides with Nasu saying the sequel is a Frankenstein that does not fit with the intent of the original.
This Mirai Fukuin nonsense is explicitly shown in Modern TM Fate Worlds, such as Case Files and Fate/GO, meaning it is completely unrelated to KnK not only due to canonicity, but due to being in Fate Worlds, while the original KnK takes place in the original Tsukihime Worlds. And it fits with those, considering she's massively out of character in those series, like Shiki leaving town over a mere disagreement with Mikiya in Case Files, among other stupid things.
Again, my friend's thread goes into much more detail, but it'd be too long for this one, since this is meant to tackle many contradictions beyond MF and KnK.
Honorable mentions of contradictions
These may or may not be outright canon level contradictions, but nice to note in quick succession anyways.
Unified Language from KnK and Actress Again was rectonned out of existence because we can't have Servant level nigh-bricks be thrown into a Pre-Tower of Babel era where everyone speaks an abstract language that hypnotizes (warps/changes/alters) the records of all creation to varying degrees.
Ryougi doesn't give a shit that Mikiya is dead due to Goetia and carries on just fine, all while saying Ritsuka reminds her of Mikiya, even though Ritsuka is a random normal selfish dude, while Mikiya's "normalcy" is so extreme that it veers into being extremely abnormal and unlike anyone else.
Enuma Elish is now some weird brick beam thingy in Fate/GO that can be negated by armor with high enough stats.
Living Gilgamesh went from destroying and recreating Gaia seven times with Enkidu while they were fighting in Strange Fake, to getting his ribs kicked in by some generic fodder enemy that normal Servants can fight.
Living Gilgamesh went from being in the same speed range as BB, as he states his Mythology Mystic Code is something he had in life, with BB being part of the Moon Cell's core that can process Gaia's reality in a nanosecond. But in Fate/GO Kingu, who Gilgamesh states may surpass the original Enkidu, could only fly at 500 kilometers per hour, and could only achieve this speed due to a magical reactor amp.
The list goes on and on and on and on.
What is part of the old canon in the Post-Fate/GO Era
Virtually nothing but Strange Fake, which started before GO and Extella is still continuing, which should make it apply to the old canon still, as its lore matches up with it. Likewise, Last Encore, despite coming out in 2018, is a direct alternate Dead End sequel to Fate/Extra, not Extella. Outside of those though, nothing else.
What is completely non-canon
Things that are non-canon in any capacity to anything are blatant parody shit, such as Carnival Phantasm, anything to do with Neco-Arc, etc. This should be pretty obvious.
If there was a composite TM, Modern TM would be in Len's dream world:
Some will use the story where Neco Arc brings OG Melty Blood Arima to fight Remake Arima, but not only would I argue anything Neco-Arc a parody/blatantly non-canon, outside of its one appearance in Len's dream, let's say it is.
If Neco-Arc's parody shit is an actual thing, then everything in Modern Type-Moon takes place in Len's dream world, meaning every character in it is counterfeit.
What evidence is there that Modern TM takes place in Len's dream world? Well, because the only time Neco-Arc shows up in a non-meta way is in Len's dream world in Kagetsu Tohya:
And in Type Lumina, in the same story where Neco Arc summons OG Melty Blood Arima, Len appears and Neco Arc says it's a subordinate of Len's:
This implies that Neco Arc is just a creation born of Len's mind, which lines up with the fact its first and only actual non-meta appearance was in Len's dream world in KT.
Len also can summon things from her Dream World into reality to a limited degree, such as...
Neco-Arc, further showing us that it's a manifestation of Len's mind.
This would allow for a composite Type-Moon, but not in the way people want. It'd mean every character we see in Modern TM is a counterfeit version of the real one. All of it is just Len's imagination/personal world to mess around with.
Modern TM versions of old characters, such as Ryougi, being out of character compared to their original selves would be possible too, as we've seen Len alter the personalities of characters in her dreams. Examples? Literally any sex scene that turned out to be a dream Len gave Tohno with out-of-character heroines. I can't send that here for obvious reasons.
This is effectively a canon split in practicality, as nothing in Modern TM is truly the same as what is in Old TM, with the only difference being that Len can make both sides meet up in her dream world.
Summary of what is canon to what
So, since I've proven why there is no unified canon, now it's time to show quickly what is canon to what in a non-convoluted manner, followed by some brief explanations.
So, some questions there will be, and those questions I will answer.
To start off, the reason most of the older Fate series are in the "Canon to both" column is because to my knowledge, nothing in Modern TM rectons those series so hard to the point timelines can't explain away the inconsistencies. The only one this doesn't apply to is the Extra series.
As I've mentioned before, Last Encore is a direct sequel that serves as an alternative Dead End to the original Fate/Extra, so despite coming out so late, it is explicitly related only to the OG.
Strange Fake, despite coming out in 2015, did come out before Fate/GO and well before Extella, on top of its lore lining up with the old canon so FAR at least, as seen with Zelretch's Second Magic abiding by what was established in Mahoyo and not the Tsukihime Remake side materials.
Just as a brief reminder, Mirai Fukuin, despite being released in 2008, is a complete incompatible contradiction to the original Kara no Kyoukai, with it never being referenced in any of the old series or its side materials ever, and it only shows up later in Modern Type-Moon Fate Worlds, even though the original KnK took place in the OG Tsukihime Worlds, as seen with Actress Again. So it started off as its own weird isolated thing that later got shoved into the new canon, and in a different multiverse (Fate Worlds) at that.
Case Files, despite coming out in 2014, not only mentions Mirai Fukuin, but its direct sequel is involved with all Modern Type-Moon shit, so it gets chucked into the modern era.
Extra Record recently showed a Tsukihime Remake version of Arcueid, so that's pretty self-explanatory. It'll also likely be the game version of Extella Zero, which would serve as a prequel to Extella.
Lastly, the Tsukihime and Melty Blood manga are included because despite being adaptions, they are more akin to alternate routes in a way, with the Melty Blood manga being the most complete version of the story I'd argue. That's the reason they're the only two adaptions I felt like mentioning.
Tsukihime 2 is listed because it is canon, as we know via Talk., Prelude, and Eclipse.
Mahoyo says "1996/2012" because it has a fully finished unreleased novel that was the first series that established the Type-Moon universe and was always considered canon, but only got a public appearance via a VN adaption, with the keyword being adaption, not remake, so don't go there with that "Ohoh, Mahoyo VN is a remake like the Tsukihime Remake and therefore part of Modern TM."
DDD is here because it very explicitly follows Old Type-Moon lore. People saying it was stated to not be canon simply don't have great reading comprehension. All that was said was that the characters with named from KnK aren't the actual KnK characters. They're just people with those names to make you do a doubletake as a nice reference. Nothing more. But the lore clearly follows that of False and True Devils, The Root/The One, etc.
And Fate/Prototype is in the new canon section because despite it being a very early concept of Fate/Stay Night, the released variants of it follow modern lore, such as Quantum Timelocks.
For those who insist on claiming Fate is one canon, or for those who find this to be too complicated
If anyone keeps insisting that all of Fate is one unified canon over and over, despite this blatantly not being possible, or for those who find the Fate shit to be too chaotic and obnoxious and want something simpler? Well I have something for you guys... kinda, maybe.
The alternative and more likely take take: Doujin Era Vs. Fate Era
Do you want Fate out of your good stuff? Don't like debating what Fate series is canon to this and that? Well, here I'm finally going to briefly go over what is the more likely canon split, that being that the end of the Doujin Era of Type-Moon is the cut off point for all things that are not a direct compatible sequel to said doujin series.
This isn't my idea. I saw several other random non-battle board people mentioning this on other websites, claiming that the Doujin Era is its own canon, as everything afterwards tries to hard to recton or delete all of its lore.
Basically, since Fate/Stay Night (aka the first Fate series) is the first non-doujin series, which later devolved into the mess that is Fate/Extella, Fate/GO, etc. that caused massive lore changes that are irreconcilable to literally everything in the Doujin Era, some consider the cutoff point to be Fate itself, with the only things being canon to the Doujin Era after Fate being direct sequels to the doujin series in question that aren't incompatible.
In this case, the canon series would be all the ones listed in the old canon section, minus Fate.
And of course, Mirai Fukuin is still not included, as it's not compatible and it takes place in Fate Worlds.
So how does this fix the Fate side of things? Well it doesn't. You need a Fate canon split regardless for any coherence.
So why is this interpretation more likely? Well, while older Fate series are more consistent, they still have incredibly suspicious things when compared to the Pre-Fate series, such as Rin saying the Third Magic is the most taboo out of the five, implying it's the greatest of them, when it's literally the weakest, excluding of the unknown Fourth Magic:
And apparently, enough magical energy could distort reality enough to where a path to The One would open, with the Holy Grail's function being to punch a hole to The One with finite magical energy:
You could make the argument that the characters of Fate simply have no idea what they are talking about, but this is still suspicious and treated as a non-incorrect info dump.
There are other things, but it's generally just things that are likely a contradict, but not absolutely confirmed 100% like the initial canon split interpretation I've mentioned. Again, this is oddly the less concrete origin of the canon split, but at the same time the more likely one, as it's pretty clear they've been trying to remove doujin lore for a long time in the vast majority of cases.
Muh battle board problem
Now, I can see some battle boarders going "The older series aren't canon to Fate here? Doesn't that make them weaker due to not having Fate to scale off of?"
Well for one, none of this is being discussed due to trying to make certain series strong or weak.
With that being said, the older series don't need Fate for scaling at all, as they've always been far above Fate with their own lore, even Extra and CCC.
The only thing of relevance in regards to Fate is giving a concrete bare-minimum speed calc that older series scale to in the form of the Moon Cell scanning Gaia's reality every nanosecond. But without this, they don't get slower, simply generally in that range still, but with no upper OR lower known limit, aside from being obscenely MFTL+. After all, we have True Ancestors being able to reality warp Gaia with their mere thoughts via Marble Phantasm if they aren't restricting their bloodlust. And we see Arcueid materialize the Millennium Castle, which is in its own world. Not to mention she can materialize an exact replica of the Moon immediately, which is its own celestial body, meaning she'd have to replicate every part of it down to the smallest particle, to even the abstract coding, as celestial bodies are their own overarching realities that contain several different dimensions and universes with their own individual abstract laws set forth by the celestial bodies.
Aside from that, the only thing Fate does is give extra minor details for things the doujin lore already gives us enough of.
So in the end, nothing really changes in terms of power if you disregard Fate.
However, I don't care about this. They could be weak as shit without Fate hypothetically for all I care. I'm concerned only with the narrative. And personally, since I either dislike or outright hate 99% of Fate, with Zero being the only one I like (and yes I've read the extremely overhyped FSN VN fully), I'm fine throwing it all away.
Of course, that's up to you. Count the older Fate series, don't count them. Doesn't matter. Either interpretation is valid.
And hey, to the few minority of people claiming I downplay Fate out of spite, I actually think Extra and CCC characters are pretty damn broken. I hate them and their series, but I'm not bias. They have some pretty insane abstract reality warpers that don't need scaling from older stuff at all. Very very concrete feats. Not even close to the level of the mid and high-tier Pre-Fate reality warper/abstract level characters, but their top tiers contend with some of the lower-end Pre-Fate reality warpers and stomp the non-reality warpers. And their god tiers could definitely defeat the lower-end reality warpers. I'd prefer they didn't, but like I said, I'm here for accuracy over what I'd personally prefer.
I also don't care if anyone likes Fate. That's fine if you do. Hell, I don't even care if you like that... Tsukihime Remake...
Aaannddd... done.
Debunking a Desperate and Unhinged Off-Site "Counter Argument"
So, someone on a random underground website in a thread dedicated to complaining about people tried to debunk this thread. It's so bad that it doesn't deserve a response, but I want to just to amuse myself for a bit.
His response to contradiction 1:
The problem with this is the exact problem people tend to have with the misunderstanding of what was added in Fate/Extella about the timelines:
That there is still infinite timelines, it's just that Humanity cannot keep up a truly infinite amount of timelines all at once(And it's only for those that stagnate or go so far out of wack at that) and more importantly, those timelines aren't truly gone, they never was:
BECAUSE THAT'S THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE EXISTENCE OF THE LOSTBELTS!
Humanity may see those timelines as "gone" but that doesn't mean the Universedoesn't. So in the most simple terms possible, Humanity operates within the scope of a potentially finite scope of time but that doesn't mean the timelines that are pruned are gone forever, they just vanish from Humanities' purview as they don't have the scope to see those pruned timelines yet. Thus there is still infinite timelines, just in the typical Nasu fashion they are very, very much different in how they are done. Next!
This is baseless, not even fully coherent, and supported nowhere. Not only is it not supported, it is contradicted, as the universe itself cannot handle infinite timelines explicitly, as I've shown in my initial post:
The universe has a finite amount of energy to spend maintaining each parallel world. Because the universe itself would expire if these realities were to expand without limit, it conserves energy by, excising worlds, at specific intervals, that have veered too far from the strongest, most stable timelines. - Fate/Extella Material
His response to contradiction 2:
...Do I even need to say anything? Because this makes zero sense because Angel Notes couldn't exist even in the "old" Type Moon, that's the entire point of Nasu never putting it in any Universe even before the advent of FGO.
This is literally never stated anywhere and he provides no source for this.
The Pruning Theoretical Phenomenon. Cannot. Prune. A. Future. That. Hasn't. Happened. Yet!
Even if that were true, which he gave no evidence for, there is nothing suggesting that Angel Notes did not happen yet. From the perspective of the modern era, sure. But nothing states that future isn't already confirmed and already has happened. Why even make a story about a hypothetical future that doesn't exist?
And here's the thing this dumbass didn't read and guess what? It couldn't anyway because the future of Angel Notes would be locked in place anyway thanks to the Quantum Time Lock(The very thing that the entire plot of Extella hinged on? Because if Velber knew and re-located Earth again thanks to Archimedes right as the QTL closed, Humanity losing against them would be forever locked to that universe. Meaning Humanity is rendered extinct, just like in Angel Notes. Next!
Abusing a loophole isn't an argument, since there was no such abuse of any loopholes in Angel Notes.
His response to contradiction 3:
Basically, he thinks Void Shiki took you PHYSICALLY to The Root in the beginning of The Garden of Sinners... when all that happened was she went into your dreamscape in both the English and Japanese versions to talk to you in advance:
Shiki stating that "it's a place without boundaries" means it must be The Root is some of the most absolutely retarded reaching I have ever seen, especially when he states it MUST BE A PHYSICAL LOCATION DESPITE THE VERY BEGINNING STATES IT'S A DREAM RITSUKA IS HAVING AND VOID EVEN STATES THEY ARE DREAMING! This isn't even new as Kagetsu Tohya had this happen with Crimson Moon Brunsterd and Shiki Tohno. NEXT!
The place without boundaries isn't The Root? Even though the entire point of The Root is that it is a place without boundaries?
Kara no Kyoukai makes a distinction between infinity and the boundlessness that is The One, with infinity still being contingent on boundaries of some kind, referring to the abstract laws that uphold reality, unlike The One, which is defined by no boundaries, abstract or otherwise and is contingent on nothing:
Infinity is not " ". To create infinity, you must define the finite. Without the finite, infinity cannot exist. Things have a boundary; only then can we conceive of infinity. In the infinity where she was placed, Ryougi Shiki found and cut through the impossible finite boundary.
...Indeed, within infinity, there should be no finite limits. The non-existent cannot be cut, which is why escape was deemed impossible. However—if there is no finite, then it's not infinity—it's "nothing." If there's any finite boundary, Shiki can find and sever it. - Kara no Kyoukai Chapter 5
(For clarification, " " refers to The Root/The One here.)
The whole point is that The Root has no boundaries. This is one of the dumbest arguments I've seen.
As for the dream argument, it was already addressed in the OP. Your dreams are not literally abstract. That doesn't even make sense. "Oh yeah, I can create a genuine visual and spatial representation of the abstract and logic itself." That's just inherently dumb.
His response to contradiction 4:
...Yeah I'm not even gonna deal with this retardation... no seriously I'm not gonna, just gonna go and put some of the cringe here:
As expected. You don't even know where to start with this argument, even poorly.
Basically dumbass fully believed in Void Shiki's own hype(That she's literally The Root and wanted to destroy all of creation but it's Shiki's own insane willpower going against it at all times... when that's not how Void Shiki is even in Garden of Sinners)
Well first off, I know he hasn't read KnK, considering he doesn't even know the name of the series, since the name is Empty Boundary/Boundary of Emptiness, not Garden of Sinners, which is a mistake only westerners who watch the poor anime adaption make, or those who haven't seen KnK at all, which is funny, since he insults westerners for their lack of understanding. Ironic.
As for the rest of his nonsense, as I've said before in the OP, I have a thread > here < debunking all misconceptions about Void Shiki.
and then believed that FGO is what turned her into a "bimby haired waifu" using fantranslation to prove his point that she's "contradicted to all hell". Get me the fuck out of here! It's fucking embarrassing.
I wish my opposition could not be unhinged for once. lol
His response to contradiction 5:
He addressed the Shiki Nanaya/Tohno part:
None of this is new, absolutely none of this has anything to do with Origin awakening. What's happening is what always happens when Shiki is ready to kill because people forget that Shiki Tohno is Shiki NANAYA, A person from a Demon Slaying Family that ultimately got wiped out due to his dad fucking with Kouma. Shiki was ALWAYS capable of doing this like this,
This doesn't even address my argument. He can always do this? Yeah? And? His origin is always awakened.
His awakened origin also explains the huge stat difference compared to the rest of his clan, since the greatest Nanaya at the time, Kiri, who is Shiki's father, lost to Kishima Kouma massively before his prime, when he had no will and no training, while a weaker inferior phantom of Nanaya summoned by White Len took on Kishima after obtaining will and training heavily, on top of unlocking his Crimson Red Vermillion State.
I could go further, but considering he didn't even really address my argument here, no point.
Origin be damned because that's not how that ever works. This is more ridiculous because Tohno's Origin would also be similar to Ryougi's due to even being able to use the MEoDP in the first place!
Higher origins can encompass lower ones. Ryougi's origin is Nil/The One/The Root, which encompasses all things, including Death, which is what Nanaya/Tohno has. But unlike him, her powers do not merely stop with MEoDP, since her origin, while including that, includes far more, as we know via Void.
Also, notice he never brings up FGO's Spirit Origin Ascension which explicitly shows the "New" Canon explicitly is still 100% to the "Old" because Servants can explicitly get stronger due to that system at will once they reach that breakthrough.
Really shot yourself in the foot here.
If the ascension shit is indeed upgrading one's origin by dumping physical materials into them, which increases their stats, that explicitly contradicts how origins work in the old canon. It isn't some magick energy from the soul that you can power up.
However, I haven't seen any evidence for Fate/GO Servant ascensions being related to actual origins, but if they are, this only proves the canons are split further.
Instead, he brings up obvious as shit downplay for Dead Apostle Shiki ignoring that's always been a thing in the "Old" canon with Kotomine only being able to run at 60KMPH despite how that doesn't fit at all with him being able to not die against Cursed Arm or the numerous amount of speed errors when it comes to Servant battles.
Kirei and Servants having shit speed is irrelevant to the speed of Tsukihime characters, as Fate is fodder to the older series consistently.
The point was that the Tsukihime Remake's feats for Shiki Tohno do not line up with that of the OG, even though they both have the same origin and would have the same general stats when they are fired up and ready to kill someone.
The speed of Fate characters has nothing to do with this. OG Shiki Tohno when serious would blitz and curbstomp any Servant in the verse in any canon, which is backed up by blatant feats.
His response to contradiction 6:
Yeah, he will "get to this later" but I can already tell that it's basically a bunch of shit because nothing shows that the First Magic was contradicted... because we have no clue on what it truly IS yet.
Well actually, you reminded me to put it in, so thanks!
His response to contradiction 7:
...Yeah, this is fucking stupid because guess what info he uses to show this is contradicted for most of it?!
STRANGE FUCKING FAKE! A series that would exactly be done around the time F/GO would be thought of and had it's first arc planned through! So apparently, Second Magic is contradicted... because of what the Tsukihime Remake stated about it?! But even then, it's more implied to be either related to Ayaka in that series(as it's confirmed she is not the same Ayaka from Prototype) because we know Zelretch created the Kalideosticks and the Neko-series robots! So it still feels utterly insane to think it's a part of 2nd Magic and it got retconned when the main reason Zelretch never appears to help is because the main flaw of the Second Magic still exists! Next!
He doesn't actually explain any contradictions here and just mentions random shit without explanations.
Also, if SF didn't fit, it'd prove my later point that the canon split started at Fate as a whole most likely, which I find to be the most likely thing.
His response to contradiction 8:
...So, you continously take things out of context and then state it MUST be lying? We already know that Aoko's Fifth Magic has to do with Time and Time Travel to some degree as we have seen in Mahoyo.
Not saying anything my initial post didn't address. The Fifth encompasses the Second Magic/time manipulation, but it goes beyond just that, as we explicitly see in Mahoyo.
His response to contradiction 9:
...Yeah, I'm just gonna skip this...
No seriously, I am. If anyone genuinely believes Extra and Extella are somehow compatible despite the entire deal with Extella is that it's a genuine sequel to Extra(The only difference is that Extella Zero is just a modified Extra)
Self-defeating argument. You say Extella is a genuine sequel to Extra, then admit that the prequel to it is a rewritten version of the original Extra.
His response to the side contradiction:
So... we should take Ryougi being a teenager with having no idea of what she even wants to do with her life... to somehow take it that her entire characterization should be the same despite that is never Nasu's style with any of his protagonists? So should Mahoyo contradict the hell out of Touko and Aoko as characters then as they don't act remotely how they do in that series? Especially being able to be right next to each other in Extra? Okay then...
Ryougi could easily just... grow up and decide to become the head of her Clan because she ultimately just grew as a person. Next!
Proving yet again you haven't even read KnK, let alone understood it.
You also didn't address my arguments and just strawmaned me, so there's nothing to address. However, I will link a thread here that goes far more in depth as to why MF isn't canon to KnK > here. < (Not made by me.)
His response to the honorable mentions of contradictions:
First one:
...Wut? I'm 100% sure that Mesopotamia, LB2, 5, 6, and 7 shits on that pretty hard that Unified Language somehow doesn't exist anymore...
This is dumber for the Servants because we already know The World gives the nitty gritty to Servants while they are being summoned so they can understand the languages of whereever they are no matter what(Or is Artoria Japanese or went to Japan when she was alive?)
Didn't address how Ritsuka and co. didn't get immediately negged, hypnotized, etc. once they entered ancient times.
And you're trying to imply that all Servants know Unified Language. So why aren't they instantly killing masters, rewriting reality itself, etc.? lmao
Second one:
...Wut? My dude, Ryougi thinks she's DREAMING because she was killed in the Incineration while she was asleep. And considering how absurd dreams can get in the Nasuverse(the entire point of Shimousa from Ritsuka's perspective is that it IS a dream ala The Matrix), her believing it's so is not suddenly inane that she's not thinking of the possibility that Mikiya is dead because she believes it will be fine when she wakes up(And hell, she's RIGHT considering when her Servant time is over, she'll wake up as if nothing happened)
Her calling it a dream was more so metaphorical if memory serves. But this doesn't explain her extreme personality shift in general in the dream, nor any other GO contradiction.
Third one:
Considering the level of Enuma Elish? You could always block it if you are that damn strong enough... but I don't know in any "canon" that outside of Enkidu's Enuma Elish and Artoria's Avalon who blocked it at full blast.
This doesn't address the argument. Next.
Fourth one:
...Huh?! Babylonia was BEFORE that scene in Strange Fake, you fucking dungus? And Gilgamesh was basically overreacting as it was a comedy skit, you moron! And let's be fucking real:
Before the scene, not before the series itself.
And it being a comedic scene doesn't change the fact that it happened.
If you got kicked by this full blast while being tired and drained to shit by working day in and day out constantly and from summoning 7 Servants and the most you can do is bitch you couldn't flaunt your power and your abdominal muscles are torn? I would say you are perfectly FINE.
Being this weakened is inexcusable. There is no way he goes from the stats shown of his Mystic Code/living self to that fodder just from being a bit tired and having some strain.
Fifth one:
For the last fucking time, both the game and the anime all but state Kingu flying at all is what makes it as ridiculous as it is due to the magical energy signature making it too much for anyone but Divine Spirits and those that can fly naturally can do so.
The scans explicitly had everyone amazed by his travel speed.
Anyways, this was a pathetic excuse of a "debunk" that didn't even deserve to get dismantled by me. But again, just doing it for fun. And it's a second example of how there are no actual counterarguments to this thread.
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